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  1. Shawarma is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 5:56am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkpaladin
    How I long for the days of schools challenging schools to prove the efficiency of their art... It's so much quicker than this whole internet thingie.
    No it isn't. See Emin vs Cheung or Emin vs Gracie for reference.
  2. Bean0r is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 1:28pm


     Style: Silat, Xingyiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    This is as close as you managed to get to the actual topic . Let me try once again to get on topic
    - Well, I touched on Beyond the Physical, but don't find it important enough or indicative enough of the art to consider it for very long.

    - The knife stuff is awful, if he was trying to teach knife defense. I'm skeptical that he was and it's more of a demonstration of body mechanics, but if they try to market that as knife defense on video, then that's their fault for misleading people (and I never said anything in my other post to contradict this). Again, I said a lot of the training is obtuse, misleading and confusing. Their knife drills falls pretty squarely in that.

    - I don't think a Systema player would label those videos as "Dim Mak" which carries with it a pretty negative connotation of ninja death touches. Those guys (Ryabko and Vasiliev) do hit very hard. I guess if you are completely skeptical that there are ways to get full body power in a strike that appears pretty effortless, then there's nothing more to say on this topic.

    - The grappling harks back to my comments on the training. There's good bits (the body mechanics, relaxation, the striking, the flow from grapple to grapple), but a lot of the training is confusing and bizarre, and can produce bad students if they aren't critical of their training and understand why they are doing what they're doing.

    I actually think I covered most of these issues in my previous post, if not specifically, but the post was not off-topic.
  3. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bean0r
    - Well, I touched on Beyond the Physical, but don't find it important enough or indicative enough of the art to consider it for very long.
    I find that claims like what are made in Beyond The Physical to be very indicatave as to an arts effectiveness .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bean0r
    - The knife stuff is awful, if he was trying to teach knife defense. I'm skeptical that he was and it's more of a demonstration of body mechanics, but if they try to market that as knife defense on video, then that's their fault for misleading people (and I never said anything in my other post to contradict this). Again, I said a lot of the training is obtuse, misleading and confusing. Their knife drills falls pretty squarely in that.
    no arguement here .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bean0r
    - I don't think a Systema player would label those videos as "Dim Mak" which carries with it a pretty negative connotation of ninja death touches. Those guys (Ryabko and Vasiliev) do hit very hard. I guess if you are completely skeptical that there are ways to get full body power in a strike that appears pretty effortless, then there's nothing more to say on this topic.
    I am sure someone in Systema would do everything in their power to disassiociate themselves from the term Dim Mak and people like Dillman . But that doesnt change what the video appears to be .

    If you watch the video I labeled Dim Mak and pay special attention to the last bit ( time mark is about 00:19 to the end ) you willl see a classic 4 slap Dillman-ish slappy tappy combo complete with over-acting on the uki and over compliance to the point of appearing to fall unconscious from a light strike to the torso , and elbow . Had the victim had waited a split second for the neck strike .. I may have given this demonstration a little bit of validity .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bean0r
    - The grappling harks back to my comments on the training. There's good bits (the body mechanics, relaxation, the striking, the flow from grapple to grapple), but a lot of the training is confusing and bizarre, and can produce bad students if they aren't critical of their training and understand why they are doing what they're doing.
    So you would agree that selling instructional videos full of such drills and mis-information and giving away clips of such nonsense over the web would be a really bad thing ? Especialy considering how hard it is to find a good Systema Instuctor who can explain and teach the real no touch hits and psychic energy .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bean0r
    I actually think I covered most of these issues in my previous post, if not specifically, but the post was not off-topic.
    More specificly this thread is about the mystical/magical/psychic energy parts of Systema . The Systema people want to pretend this material isn't taught or promoted within the schools themselves , that it is not a part of the standard curriculum , and that the claims made aren't bullshit but in fact are real and effective when pinned down on the subject .

    Your first post ( as I read it anyway ) appeared to gloss over and dismiss the extremely questionable practices and claims made by the system . Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify your post .

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________

    So now that we are back on topic .


    Systema and their
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  4. Bean0r is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 5:35pm


     Style: Silat, Xingyiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    I find that claims like what are made in Beyond The Physical to be very indicatave as to an arts effectiveness .
    It's been my experience that some people who are very good fighters can have amazingly stupid beliefs. I don't discount the quality of a teacher or his skill just because he has kooky beliefs. You may be right that it's indicative of something, but sometimes there's a kooky belief mixed in with someone who really knows how to strike or take a strike or whatever, and can be of some use to you and your training.

    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    I am sure someone in Systema would do everything in their power to disassiociate themselves from the term Dim Mak and people like Dillman . But that doesnt change what the video appears to be .

    If you watch the video I labeled Dim Mak and pay special attention to the last bit ( time mark is about 00:19 to the end ) you willl see a classic 4 slap Dillman-ish slappy tappy combo complete with over-acting on the uki and over compliance to the point of appearing to fall unconscious from a light strike to the torso , and elbow . Had the victim had waited a split second for the neck strike .. I may have given this demonstration a little bit of validity .
    Well my point was rather that they are probably not light strikes at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    So you would agree that selling instructional videos full of such drills and mis-information and giving away clips of such nonsense over the web would be a really bad thing ? Especialy considering how hard it is to find a good Systema Instuctor who can explain and teach the real no touch hits and psychic energy .
    I don't have to condone the business practices of a school to also believe that it can offer some good concepts and skills. For a lot of these guys this is also a means of supporting themselves and their families, and some exaggeration and fluff makes it easier to get people in the door. This sort of mindset is not very consistent with the purpose of this website, and it's not how I would run a school if I ever started one, but it's just a perspective, I guess, on why they might market themselves like they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    More specificly this thread is about the mystical/magical/psychic energy parts of Systema . The Systema people want to pretend this material isn't taught or promoted within the schools themselves , that it is not a part of the standard curriculum , and that the claims made aren't bullshit but in fact are real and effective when pinned down on the subject .
    I'm not going to "defend" the practice as being useful or practical, but I also think that calling the BTP stuff "magical" or "mystical" misrepresents what they are trying to convey. The idea, as I understand it, is that people have basic reactions to certain actions that you can use to manipulate them based on those reactions without having to touch them. Basically flinch stuff. I think it's bullshit for a number of reasons, and like I said, we never trained it when I studied Systema. I also am pretty skeptical that a really good Systema player would ever try to use it in an actual fight, but who knows...
  5. BaguaMonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2006 9:07pm


     Style: Alien Cosmic Chi Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Systema conversations have been done over and over again. It is very similar to IMA, sometimes without the mystic BS, and sometimes with. All the demos and videos you see are examples of certain things, drills, and ways to improve and enhance different aspects of the mind and body I guess. From what I've been told, alot of the "psychic" looking things that happen, is actually just him messing with the attackers intent, learning to lead, or follow, and then suddenly stop or counter. This is an age old IMA principle, and people such as Osensei were very good at it. I still think at some point systema innovators/inventors learned some IMA somewhere, or at least some zhan zhuang somewhere. I've even seen systema guys practicing fajing.

    I agree that alot of the things look iffy, and I even saw a systema vid in the 60's, of one of the main guys practicing with another what looked like push hands.

    I can say from the videos, that this guy. and alot of other systema guys have incredible awareness of body mechanics, and natural reactions to situations. I don't agree with alot of things, but I like how they are at least trying to incorporate all aspects of fighting with something that highly resembles IMA movement and body method.

    I don't know much about systema, but I'm just going to go out on a limb, that what they try to represent is more of training tools/methods to develop certain ways of mental and physical awareness, to teach the body proper body mechanics, and to "flow" or keep changing with change. This is the way I see IMA, and its training tools, I don't claim IMA can kill anyone, or that Dim Mak is t3h real deal, or that its techniques are deadly, but it helps in developing core tools and fundamentals that will help in whatever else you do. The moment you begin to think that your "art" itself (not you) is ultimate, without ever testing it out for yourself, is the moment you set yourself up for some roid head to ground and pound you.
    Last edited by BaguaMonk; 4/22/2006 9:12pm at .
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