Is sparring necessary?

[Goju - Joe]

This whole train of thought is redtarded. Just becasue a Muay Thai fighter doesn't train to do a round house to a knee, does not mean he can't aim a little lower and hit that spot... plus he has the advantage that he knows distancing and has timing cause he's actully hit people before who don't want to get hit.

Are you saying my train of thought is retarded, or the previous posts about hiting to the knee is retarded and quoting me to support that?

[Darren San]

you'd be still not training what you say you would be able to do afterwards, that is gouging-eyes here

So, you are saying that I have to actually poke people's eyes out to train in the skills necessary to poke someone in the eye?

Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculeous! That is one of the lamest things I have ever read on here yet.

So, by your logic, heavy bag work is useless to the boxer ... he must use a human being to develop power in his punches.

The US Army infantry must then use real people on their rifle ranges ... metal targets are not "real" enough. I know, they could use convicted felons and decrease the problem of overcrowding in our prison systems.

Come on Dude! Be real ... I don't have to smash my thumb with a four pound hammer to know that it would hurt!!!!

[Smeagol]

So, you are saying that I have to actually poke people's eyes out to train in the skills necessary to poke someone in the eye?

Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculeous! That is one of the lamest things I have ever read on here yet.

So, by your logic, heavy bag work is useless to the boxer ... he must use a human being to develop power in his punches.

The US Army infantry must then use real people on their rifle ranges ... metal targets are not "real" enough. I know, they could use convicted felons and decrease the problem of overcrowding in our prison systems.

Come on Dude! Be real ... I don't have to smash my thumb with a four pound hammer to know that it would hurt!!!!

you are "training" to poke out eyes by pushing the ground, which is VERY stationary and far from being small, while the eye is small and moves.

boxers not only use the heavy bag ... because they know: SPARRING IS NECESSARY

so we're back on topic.

[Rhamma]

you'd be still not training what you say you would be able to do afterwards, that is gouging-eyes here

For that I pick olives out of a jar and eat them!!!

[Slydermv]

Are you saying my train of thought is retarded, or the previous posts about hiting to the knee is retarded and quoting me to support that?

No.. not saying you are retarded, just the train of thought some people in self defence have. Last night in class, my instructor was mentioning a few things. Along with MMA and BJJ, he also runs a combat hapkido class with small joint manipulations, throat strikes, knee kicks etc.

The thing he mentioned was you have to be confident in your abilities in order to make them work in real situation. You have to go and bang under a rule set, take shots and give them if you want to make the rest of your self defence work. You can't fool yourself.

The small joint manipulation, groin kicks, knee kicks and the rest work... but to make use of them you have to know timing, distancing and you have to be albe to take a shot cause some guy isn't gonna let you grab his hand and bend his fingers back. You're gonna crumble, regardless of how many years you've spent hitting pads and practicing your joint locks or your groin kicks.

Rules in MMA are there for a reason. You can't kick a knee cause you can end someones career doing it. But if you can't take a shot and have never banged, you're gonna get pummled before any of this can happen.

Some big dude comes at you, your not gnna be able to fool yourself, so why do it in class. Hit, get hit, learn to bang, then maybe you can get control of your opponent and do all that **** the rules don't allow. It was the most sence I've ever heard someone speak.

So **** the nut riders on either side.:karated: heheheh

[PointyShinyBurn]

Rules in MMA are there for a reason. You can't kick a knee cause you can end someones career doing it. But if you can't take a shot and have never banged, you're gonna get pummled before any of this can happen.

Kicks to the knee are legal in both Pride and the UFC.

[Darren San]

you are "training" to poke out eyes by pushing the ground, which is VERY stationary and far from being small, while the eye is small and moves.

boxers not only use the heavy bag ... because they know: SPARRING IS NECESSARY

so we're back on topic.

Certainly....sparring (randori, etc) is necessary. I have never said it wasn't ..once we settled on a good definition of sparring (i.e. not tip/tap point karate) in this forum. However, so are strengthening and conditioning drills (i.e. fingertip push-ups), flexibility exercises, and reaction / accuracy / focus drills. To argue that working in these areas of training is somehow a waste of time because at that precise moment you are not "sparring" is ludicris.

[Goju - Joe]

No.. not saying you are retarded, just the train of thought some people in self defence have. Last night in class, my instructor was mentioning a few things. Along with MMA and BJJ, he also runs a combat hapkido class with small joint manipulations, throat strikes, knee kicks etc.

The thing he mentioned was you have to be confident in your abilities in order to make them work in real situation. You have to go and bang under a rule set, take shots and give them if you want to make the rest of your self defence work. You can't fool yourself.

The small joint manipulation, groin kicks, knee kicks and the rest work... but to make use of them you have to know timing, distancing and you have to be albe to take a shot cause some guy isn't gonna let you grab his hand and bend his fingers back. You're gonna crumble, regardless of how many years you've spent hitting pads and practicing your joint locks or your groin kicks.

Rules in MMA are there for a reason. You can't kick a knee cause you can end someones career doing it. But if you can't take a shot and have never banged, you're gonna get pummled before any of this can happen.

Some big dude comes at you, your not gnna be able to fool yourself, so why do it in class. Hit, get hit, learn to bang, then maybe you can get control of your opponent and do all that **** the rules don't allow. It was the most sence I've ever heard someone speak.

So **** the nut riders on either side.:karated: heheheh

I am at a loss at how you could have completely misunderstood what I was saying.

I was speaking in FAVOR of hard contact sparring and am basically in agreement with you. My point was that people who can do good controled sparring with rules, thus take and deliver shots, and beat someone under those rules is more likely to win a street fight without rules than someone who never tries out any of their technique in such a manner

I said:

"Good sparring is a system with rules that allows you to try out techniques that would put you in a position to finish off an attacker in a real situation.

For example Kyokushin guys may not do deadly knee breaks or throat strikes in sparring but the know 'emipriacly' through experience, that they have the ability to punch or kick someone who is resisteng to the best of their ability in a preassure situation hard enough to send that person to the ground where they can follow up with whatever finishing technique they want.

Same with boxing and Muay Thai and Grappling. They know through sparring and competiton they can finsih someone off. People who don't spar in this way, tip tap points or no take downs and submission are only guessing and assuming."

[meng_mao]

Rules in MMA are there for a reason. You can't kick a knee cause you can end someones career doing it.

I agree with that the spirit of MMA rules is to prevent dangerous injuries, but I'm not aware that the second sentence is a rule in any MMA rules I know.

[Darren San]

I am at a loss at how you could have completely misunderstood what I was saying.

I was speaking in FAVOR of hard contact sparring and am basically in agreement with you. My point was that people who can do good controled sparring with rules, thus take and deliver shots, and beat someone under those rules is more likely to win a street fight without rules than someone who never tries out any of their technique in such a manner

I said:

"Good sparring is a system with rules that allows you to try out techniques that would put you in a position to finish off an attacker in a real situation.

For example Kyokushin guys may not do deadly knee breaks or throat strikes in sparring but the know 'emipriacly' through experience, that they have the ability to punch or kick someone who is resisteng to the best of their ability in a preassure situation hard enough to send that person to the ground where they can follow up with whatever finishing technique they want.

Same with boxing and Muay Thai and Grappling. They know through sparring and competiton they can finsih someone off. People who don't spar in this way, tip tap points or no take downs and submission are only guessing and assuming."

Couldn't agree more. My point of contention has always been this prevalent assumption that "all karate schools are the same" and "no karate people train that way" and "the only thing you need is sparring ...all else is a waste of time" and "all Isshin-ryu sucks."

First, there are no bad styles ... only bad instructors.

I have seen bad instructors in several styles including, much to my chagrin, many in my own style.