Is sparring necessary?

**meng_mao** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 11:28am

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

OH, so now the russian boxer story is attributed to yet another guy.

If it is a matter of public record, what was the other man's name, where and when did they fight, and by what rules?

I am curious as to your response as Motobu would have been 50 or 51

:-o pure pwnage

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 11:41am

actually Motobu was supposed to be a very tough guy and I don't doubt he could have beat someone but this Russian Boxer thing, where it is ALWAYS a Russian and he is ALWAYS 2 or 3 times the size of the japanese/chinese/korean (as most accounts place motobu at at least 170 pounds, the guy would have had to be pretty damn big to be twice his size or more - 340+?), we have to figure out the origin of this meme.

And while the story HAS actually be reprinted (notably in "King" magazine in 1925) the name, actual exact nationality, training, record and size of the 'russian boxer' always seem to be omitted. Given that it was a boxing vs judo exhibition match, I have to wonder if they didn't just grab some sailor in port that was good and blond and tall and offer him a sawbuck to fight "a little japanese guy"

**Darren San** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 12:21pm

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

OH, so now the russian boxer story is attributed to yet another guy.

If it is a matter of public record, what was the other man's name, where and when did they fight, and buy what rules?

Wow, Dude! I attributed the original quote to the person who wrote it...Choki Motobu, ... who is also the man who fought the Russian boxer.

They fought in Osaka, Japan in 1921. Osaka was, and still is, a major Japanese seaport. The Russian was a sailor who was competing in a all-comers challenge matches for prize money. Sort of like "cock fighting", but with people. Not much in the way of rules, I am afraid. The Russian boxer had been pretty darn successful up until that match. The Japanese magazine "Kingu" published a story on the fight in 1925. It is not a detailed account of the match, but does give a general history of it. Kingu was a major Japanese general interest magazine of the time with a circulation of over a million readers. I suggest if you want to know the Russian boxer's name do a little research yourself ... I am sure you wouldn't take my word for it anyway.

Of course, it goes both ways. Most boxing historians can tell you that in 1928, a bantamweight boxer named Packy O'Gatty (a very tough Irishman) knocked out a Japanese Ju-jitsu fighter named Shimakado in 14 seconds. The 14 seconds included the full count.

Anyway, the point is not who he was. That fight happened years ago. The point is that a good karate man, who actually knows his stuff is not nearly as "comedic" as many on this list seem to think. Should I judge all Ju-jitsu fighters by the one who got KO'd by an Irish boxer.

By the way, Choki Motobu "sparred" as often as he could!

**Darren San** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 12:23pm

Motobu was, in fact, 50 years old at the time of the match. Twice his size is a figure of speech. Suffice it to say that the typical Russian Boxer is bigger than the typical Okinawan karate man.

**Darren San** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 1:05pm

Could it also simply be that nobody got the Russian dude's name? I don't know the names of all the fighter's beaten by Royce Gracie, but that doesn't detract from his abilities.

hmmmmmmmm

Actually, it just dawned on me how ridiculous it is for me to be sitting here discussing the pros and cons of sparring, fighting, styles etc. I should be spending this time training.

As my old pal, Clint Eastwood, said " A man has got to know his limitations." You guys are obviously way too good for me ... way out of my league. Anyway, I posted my web address, so you know where I am. I am always happy to train with, or learn from anyone. If you happen to be in the area, look me up.

**wagamichi** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 1:38pm

Originally Posted by Darren San

Could it also simply be that nobody got the Russian dude's name? I don't know the names of all the fighter's beaten by Royce Gracie, but that doesn't detract from his abilities.

But the names can be verified. Every art has the old he beat up this guy ****. And could it be that the boxer was a ringer so that motobus art would recive acclaim? How accurate were japanese newspapers then?

Originally Posted by Darren San

hmmmmmmmm

Self pleasure.

Originally Posted by Darren San

Actually, it just dawned on me how ridiculous it is for me to be sitting here discussing the pros and cons of sparring, fighting, styles etc. I should be spending this time training.

Actualy this translates to I want to look at porn now.

Originally Posted by Darren San

As my old pal, Clint Eastwood, said " A man has got to know his limitations." You guys are obviously way too good for me ... way out of my league. Anyway, I posted my web address, so you know where I am. I am always happy to train with, or learn from anyone. If you happen to be in the area, look me up.

And here we have the oldest Noob trick in the book...look I am losing my half ass aurgument so...i will (with condensation) admit defeat like a patronizing parent of a 5 year old.

Look here, you have been pleasent enough so I have left you alone. Dude, You do isshen-ryu karate-do....Transaltion The one heart way of empty hand bullshido.

Karate-Jitsu is about fighting. Karate-do is about, as you put it...introspection. One about fighting, one about becoming a better person. They do not cross paths.

This site is about arts that fight. Isshen-ryu is not one of them.

Lets stand around and talk about people not knowing how to do a forearm block...like I can.

Isshen-ryu was for the round EYES. Thats right. For the very people occupying thier island. Do you really think they were going to give the Marines good instruction?

You dodged the do you sparr question till it sounded like a witch confessing to the spanish inqusittion. Do we belive it or not?

"Come to my school" Easy to say, not many people are going to travel to beat up an Isshen-ryu guy.

You are right about one thing, we are better than you at fighting. becuse we actualy fight. We don't sit around doing kata, then "exploring" some stupid bunkai till we find the "true" meaning of karate.

Condesend some more Isshen ryu guy!

**Hannibal** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 5:02pm

If his style does hard training and hard contact fighting. Then thats good enough. Its allright. No problem.

The only problem I have is with what was menioned earlier. How true karate when used makes it impossible for your opponant to launch second and third attacks. Ideas such as this are false.

Bullshit like "If you master this kata, you are undefeatable". I've heard it before and the people who say it are always those who want to sit out and take a break when its time for sparring.

**Boyd** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 7:19pm

Originally Posted by Darren San

I am curious though ... did you accept his challenge?

Yeah. I posted the full story here, if you're interested (I'm LAVATORR): http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26517

**kipdynamite** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 7:48pm

Actually this story does appear in the "History of Okinawan Karate" by Richard Kim, but the veracity of the claim is from antecdotal evidence and I don't trust oral history becuase of the bullshit factor (whcih even I have partaken in). Darren I was interested to see you and I were on the same page in regard to blocking. Traditional MA blocking has limited applications in modern streetfighting watch any number of streetfight vodeos on the net and see how fast people attack. A person might block one, maybe two with traditional blocks before they get taged. The best way to deal with wild str33t style punching is to have better counter punching skills or (drumroll) take'em to the mat, ground and pound. :viking:

**Hannibal** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 11:48pm

Originally Posted by kipdynamite

Actually this story does appear in the "History of Okinawan Karate" by Richard Kim, but the veracity of the claim is from antecdotal evidence and I don't trust oral history becuase of the bullshit factor (whcih even I have partaken in). Darren I was interested to see you and I were on the same page in regard to blocking. Traditional MA blocking has limited applications in modern streetfighting watch any number of streetfight vodeos on the net and see how fast people attack. A person might block one, maybe two with traditional blocks before they get taged. The best way to deal with wild str33t style punching is to have better counter punching skills or (drumroll) take'em to the mat, ground and pound. :viking:

I agree.

I have come to the conclusion that training in a decent grappling art is probably the best form of self defense fighting one can ever have. Standing there and trading blows with your attacker just won't work if your facing someone who stronger/heavier than you. Grappling is the key, its the equaliser.