Anti-Grapple

[It is Fake]

No, he isn't training, he is *testing* his skills.

[jnp]

1) ''anti-grapple" is marketed like some miracle product: Removes Unsightly Grappling with one application! rather than another fighting attribute to be developed.

sigged for common sense's sake

[whybother]

Actually, it was started long before that, but it is true that the UFC marketing machine produced alot of grapplers, so a specific program to counter that had to be put out to the students.

Assuming that WT NEVER faced any wrestlers before the UFC(which is just stupid), and the program was made specifically to fight them, the name Anti-Grappling then makes perfect sense. It was made specifically to fight Grapplers though. However, both Kernspeckt and Boztepe have wrestling backgrounds, and the Bulgarian National Wrestling Team has attributed their success to the Coaching from EWTO.

When I first learned the programs in the mid 1990's, noone said anything about them being ancient or "lost" hidden stuff from Yip Man. We were told that they had been created from root movements and from Si-Fu Bozetepes experience specifically to deal with he changining aspect of the world fighting culture.

I think there are two trends here. The first is Boztepe's creation of anti-grappling. The other is how some wc groups, like William Cheung's TWC, claims groundfighting as part of wc. I do not think the UFC or the Gracies were the impetus for either, though they have contiributed to the promotion of it. This **** arose after the Cheung v. Boztepe fight, when the "masters" had to explain publically why they were rolling around on the ground and because both "masters" actually having been in a fight saw for the first time that such a thing was likely! So I think they began looking for answers to being on the ground. The problem is that none of these groups have any real experience or skill on the ground (as evidenced by what they promote and teach), and are trying to adopt stand-up wc technqiues (arguably poor anyway) to ground and grappling situations where they don't really apply. This, however, wasn't readily apparent to most people at the time (late 80s) since BJJ hadn't yet broken out and good groundfighting/grappling wasn't commonly appreciated. Shortly after the UFC, it became more clear what good groundfighting was but the wcer's had already committed themselves. They couldn't just say "we were wrong" and just switch to cross training. So they continue to promote this nonsense.

[fanatical]

Question for the WC folks.

Every time your "anti-grappling" is discussed. People point out inherent flaws, and to a trained (and not so trained) eye.. These flaws are easily spotted.

So let's follow first, the "it's been part of the system for a long time" thread. This means that during the course of many many years. WC anti-grappling has been tried and tested, and subsequently FAILED a million times. Yet no changes have been made or the project dropped in favor of a better method. This has never happened. Why not?

Let's follow the second explanation that you provided good Doctor.
Boztepe introduced Anti-grappling in the early 90's. With the coming of the UFC, MMA, The Gracie family running rampant across the globe and plenty of opportunities and experience to test this and keep it evolving the next 10-20 years.. WC has opted NOT to it would seem. Why not?

Why am I pointing this out?

Because every time people say "dude, this is ****, let it go". None the less, WC'ers cling to excuses. It's kind of like a Judo player claiming that "oh our style has excellent striking" because Kano included the Atemi Kata. But Judo players will readily admit that you will get very little, to no benefit in striking from training the kata. It's allowed to view your own style with a little bit of criticism. Perhaps because I've tried a lot of different styles and no style really feels like "home" to me, there's a special emotional connection people have with their chosen styles. But don't let logic, reasoning and pure fact be completely blocked out by your love for the art.

Please.

THAT is what makes WC'ers look like tards every fucking time. Good luck proving your bullshit anti-grappling is anything but a huge fucking waste of time.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

Whybother, very good comments.

Fanatical, I can not answer for the WC schools, I do WT and Latosa Escrima. Many of us in WT HAVE cross trained with BJJ and as I said earlier, the basic techniques are not that different.

I prefer to do stand up. We have tested it out.

. But don't let logic, reasoning and pure fact be completely blocked out by your love for the art.

Please.

What pure fact, logic, and reasoning? Like the idea that the back of the neck can take any amount of force the enemy can dish out? or that neck cranks are not effective against a takedown? or that a kick to the front of the knee will never stop a good tackle attempt? My favorite is the one when their throat is being crushed in a choke they will then do an arm bar on that arm. The BJJ nutriders often delude themselves too.

I have seen many of the strikes in the WT (anti) Grappling used to win events in MMA. I have seen strong guys muscle their way out of locks even, so what good is an arm bar if the stronger man can just muscle out of it? Everything has its strength and weakness.

THAT is what makes WC'ers look like tards every fucking time. Good luck proving your bullshit anti-grappling is anything but a huge fucking waste of time.

As I said, it is not that different then BJJ, so you are just insulting the techniques of your own program. The only difference is in the focus and the presentation. We try to prevent the ground if it goes there get back up. BJJ trys to get too the ground and stall untill a mistake is made and take advantage of it. The Better BJJ guys will even force you to make one of those mistakes.

[Shuma-Gorath]

As I said, it is not that different then BJJ, so you are just insulting the techniques of your own program.

You ripped off BJJ and managed to make it suck by using its techniques with WC training methods. You're the one insulting an art.

BJJ trys to get too the ground and stall untill a mistake is made and take advantage of it. The Better BJJ guys will even force you to make one of those mistakes.

In what context? I can throw you or break your arm standing if I need to. As for getting to the ground and stalling, I might stall for a few seconds after the takedown as I drive knee-on-stomach so I can watch you puke.

[fanatical]

Whybother, very good comments.

Fanatical, I can not answer for the WC schools, I do WT and Latosa Escrima. Many of us in WT HAVE cross trained with BJJ and as I said earlier, the basic techniques are not that different.

I prefer to do stand up. We have tested it out.

And yet you have been a stalwart defender of crappy anti-grappling.

What pure fact, logic, and reasoning? Like the idea that the back of the neck can take any amount of force the enemy can dish out? or that neck cranks are not effective against a takedown? or that a kick to the front of the knee will never stop a good tackle attempt? My favorite is the one when their throat is being crushed in a choke they will then do an arm bar on that arm. The BJJ nutriders often delude themselves too.

Funny you should mention it, because a really good JJ guy passed my guard keeping pressure on my throat keeping me from moving the other day. But last thursday I armbarred a guy doing the exact same thing, first trying for a triangle that failed. This is the WC theory vs. sparring reality. OMG U CAN'T KILL ME WHEN I CRUSH YR THROAT AND DESTROY U. When a couple of lines further down you talk of how things can succeed or fail depending on skill. Effectively debunking your own argument.

I have seen many of the strikes in the WT (anti) Grappling used to win events in MMA. I have seen strong guys muscle their way out of locks even, so what good is an arm bar if the stronger man can just muscle out of it? Everything has its strength and weakness.

See?

And that's why this is pretty ironic since every "anti-grappling" business I have ever seen has been a jumble of nonsense where people practice their usual compliant **** drills and demo's without ever (from dozens of pictures and videos) being attacked in an at least plausible way. It's like the JJJ defense against a round punch. Which sort of depends on the person throwing it being completely untrained and not really knowing what he's doing.

Comparing that to common high and low percentage techniques is laughable.

As I said, it is not that different then BJJ, so you are just insulting the techniques of your own program. The only difference is in the focus and the presentation. We try to prevent the ground if it goes there get back up. BJJ trys to get too the ground and stall untill a mistake is made and take advantage of it. The Better BJJ guys will even force you to make one of those mistakes.

Interestingly BJJ is not my program. I've met very few BJJ guys who stall on the ground. The stalling is usually done by myself because I suck ass and try to regain my composure before I'm raped. That's right, I'm not claiming my superiority. Omg, but I'm on Bullshido aren't I? I should be talking about how you suck balls and all that.

But if you think that WC anti-grappling is "not that different from BJJ" I have a very hard time taking you seriously.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

You have a hard time reading too. I said the techniques are basically the same. How many ways are there to escape an arm bar anyway? You can only rotate your arm in two directions, and one leads INTO the bar, so there is only one way to start the escape. If they gt far enough the only escape is to tap....

and that direction leads to a diffrent BJJ lock, which has a different escape. and so on....The whole reason it starts with Anti- is to remind yourself to try and break this cycle. Thats it, its real simple.

as to stalling, I see it alot on the TV, where the BJJ hugs and holds on to stifle the other guys movements. Royce used to do it to tire people out. I have seen BJJ go in quick too....

[fanatical]

You have a hard time reading too. I said the techniques are basically the same. How many ways are there to escape an arm bar anyway? You can only rotate your arm in two directions, and one leads INTO the bar, so there is only one way to start the escape. If they gt far enough the only escape is to tap....

WHAT?

There's no such thing as "BASICALLY THE SAME" if it was, then every system would present the same results because a punch is just a punch right? WRONG. (Incidentally, all systems that teach punching are not the same and produce different results and skill levels) I'm telling you that the idea you have about this being so similar is absolutely false. You should reconsider your opinion. I'm saying that to be helpful.

and that direction leads to a diffrent BJJ lock, which has a different escape. and so on....The whole reason it starts with Anti- is to remind yourself to try and break this cycle. Thats it, its real simple.

What you're mentioning is the "chess game" of grappling and there's no way of BREAKING the cycle unless you have greater skill, vastly greater strength or pure luck. The way you're presenting this sounds completely like a theorist would, and I'm not surprised.

as to stalling, I see it alot on the TV, where the BJJ hugs and holds on to stifle the other guys movements. Royce used to do it to tire people out. I have seen BJJ go in quick too....

The "stalling" you're talking about it keeping yourself safe because people are attempting to maul you, or people simply have close to equal skill and that's just how the game goes because no one can find an opening. You call it stalling, others call it neutralizing the opponent. I guess it's not flashy enough for you.

[Coyote]

My definition of anti-grapple:

Any technique or series of techniques that a striking art practitioner can use to escape a grappler while simultaneously moving his opponant back into striking range.
After watching several of Chuck Liddell's fights, I can say that he has teh true anti-grapple.