Posted On:5/03/2003 11:24pm
Style: Chinese Boxing
Look, if the martial arts had no rank to make people feel good, nobody wiuld be taking karate.
Don't fukking deny it either. you bozo's say rank means nothing to you, but i bet you'd all quit if you were not rewarded, and if you say different you are full of shitt.
"If attacked fight, and fight to kill"
[this is my from my all so knowledgable friend not the true Omega]
In the days before Kano created Judo, there was no kyu/dan ranking system in the martial arts. A more traditional method of recognizing achievement was the presentation of certificates or scrolls, often with the secrets of the school inscribed. Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded shodan to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between yudansha (black belt ranks) and mudansha (those who hadn't yet attained black belt ranking). Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black obi (belts) in 1886. These obi weren't the belts karateka and judoka wear today -- Kano hadn't invented the judogi (Judo uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They were the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern judogi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black belt ranks. The other colored belts originated later when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. He felt that western students would show greater progress if they had a visible system of many colored belts recognizing achievement and providing regular incentives.
[omega talking now]
So basically I would say that you were only partially right Jamoke. I don't have rank, my friend here does. I do it because I like it and I don't need any rank.
As for you 9chambers, I think you are right on with your second choice. If you're going to be teaching this stuff you'd need certification in something even if there are no belts to tie to the rank. My question to you is what would you like to teach. Better yet why don't you do a multiple cross training and come up with your own system. Then you could call it 9chambers martial arts (hey I think I've come up with something for you there)
I'm going out and invent my own system and call it omega ju jitsu "The last path to gentleness" Yeah, I'm good!!
Go away I'm talking to myself
Such as thou art, sometime was I.
Posted On:5/04/2003 12:57am
Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu
Those people don't have belts because they have better sources of credibility. Which brings us full circle to the meta-debate...
"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"
Courtesy of flubtitles.com
Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
Posted On:5/04/2003 1:15am
&gt;Better yet why don't you do a multiple
&gt;cross training and come up with your own
&gt;system. Then you could call it 9chambers
&gt;martial arts (hey I think I've come up
&gt;with something for you there)
(see page 1 of this thread)
&gt;My question to you is what would you like
What would I like to teach? Well, I think there are plenty of good BJJ teachers out there already. Also, wrestling is big around here. We have good wrestling coaches in the area. I want to teach a good striking art and have cross-training available. I want to be able to say, here is our traditional system that you will hold rank in but we also offer cross-training in 9 Chamber style MMA or whatever if you want to suppliment your training and be a well-rounded fighter.
That way, when they leave they can open a small school of their own that teaches the striking art and also teaches 9 Chambers mixed stuff. I could certify them to teach my stuff but also give them a legit rank that they can use in the martial arts community as a whole.
In other words the legit art is kind of a a front. I will give them sound training in that art. Then I'll give them my stuff if they want as well. They will have a legit rank they can use for business or status and training they can use in a real fight too.
If I started a boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, JKD or wrestling school then that would be kind of like two effective systems but still .. no legit front system. I am looking for something I can give the students that will establish them as "martial artists" as well as fighters. Right now the coolest traditional martial arts that I want to take but haven't yet seem to be:
Baji/Piqua (Kung Fu)
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Kali and Eskrima
What are some other cool possibilities? Whic one would be the coolest to teach as my front art and maybe contribute the most to the unconventional suppliment art I will teach?
Posted On:5/04/2003 1:26am
Why don't you get a few fights under your belt and strike out on your own?
"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"
Courtesy of flubtitles.com
Posted On:5/04/2003 1:32am
Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu
9chambers, if that is the decision you have made, then i say JKD for you. without a doubt.
"Look, if the martial arts had no rank to make people feel good, nobody would be taking karate"
unfortunately he is right. many people like the 'status' they derive from ranking. this attitude has little to do with real achievement, i.e. the developement of skill. rather is it is an external bolstering of self confidence.they would view a cpr certiface the same way. bragging rights.
"Don't fukking deny it either. you bozo's say rank means nothing to you, but i bet you'd all quit if you were not rewarded, and if you say different you are full of shitt."
i dont deny i wouldn't mind being ranked, and actually ,i anticipate it within the next few years. as far as quitting goes, that's a crock. i know quite a few unranked practitioners that are personally motivated and generally superior to their dojo counterparts in many areas. they may not know how to tie a belt, but they can defend themselves.
the real point here is that it DOESNT REALLY MATTER if your belt is legit or not. very few people would check or even know how to verify the authenticity of a certificate or ranking. guys lie about different aspects of their training all the time. sometimes it is all a lie. and you know what? nobody knows the difference. examples abound, both those who falsely claim lineage to those who manufacture it.
i know of a local teacher who claims lineage lines in like 6 different systems. and the guy is terrible, really. he has some training, but nowhere near what he claims.
another guy was teaching women boxing for self defense and he claimed to be an TKD black belt with 11 yrs. experience. i talked to him later and he readily admitted to it being a fabrication. and this guy has quite a few students. mind boggling.
i believe i am a fair judge of skill and have the resources to check on lineage/rank claims, but the average person does not. they dont even think about it. they will believe just about anything, because they dont know any better.
Wastrel made the prime point in this discussion already. and that pretty much sums it up.
"the reality is, you go to a black belt and you may still be learning from someone who taught himself...AND there is NO independent review or quality control in MArts. In fact, in just about every other profession, your reputation can be quite easily destroyed by other practitioners if you do bad work. MArtists, as tough as they're supposed to be, are some of the most protected of professions. Why? Because of the nature of the test. Litigation looms..."
it is simply a case of buyer beware.
"Now why would you just stand there and watch him do that!?"
Posted On:5/04/2003 1:38am
What do you mean? Pro fights? I haven't had any pro fights or won any UFC belts or anything if that is what you mean. I don't really plan on doing that for a living .. because winning 5 NHB fights isn't going to make me an instant sensation, these days you'd have to win 15-20 to even get noticed. I am 31 years old. I don't plan on becoming a pro fighter for the next 5-10 years just so I can have a school.
I just want a little school.
[I've defended myself in 27 real fights, worked in a reform school restraining kids who were much bigger than me without hurting them, I also did some boxing and kickboxing (not in a formal organization) and I wrestled in school. I have also done free sparring my whole life. I'm pretty sure that I can fight ~ if that's what you meant.]
Edited by - 9chambers on May 04 2003 01:46:34
Certified Fitness Trainer
Posted On:5/04/2003 1:46am
Style: Judo, Jujitsu
I remember seeing this JKD site where they would send you ranks by having you send in videos of yourself performing techniques and such. I didn't really pay attention to it at the time, because I'm not one for learning by video tape. But since you say you already have the knowledge and are just looking for some ranking.... perhaps you could look into it and get the ranking through them. Getting up to a certain rank also "certifies" you to open a JKD school under their organization. That's about as much information as I can remember. Unfortunately, I can't remember the website, but I found it while just doing some general searches, so I'm sure you could do so as well. If I can find the website again, I'll post the address for you.
--A poor band player I was, but now I am crocodile king. --
Click To Get My Free Training Newsletter... Do It NOW!
"You all just got fucking owned.";
"TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."
- The Wastrel
Posted On:5/04/2003 2:19am
God rank is a sticky issue. I'm on both sides too. I, just like everyone else, am aware that rank means very little to anyone outside the organization you are ranked in. In fact I tend to never respect any rank at all until I've seen em in action. All the time people tell me "you should meet so and so he's a black belt too, maybe you guys could spar" And I instantly think the guy is a charlatan and I could take him out in 2.5. So no I don't buy into the whole rank bandwagon. However, I have several ranks and they come in handy. They unequivocably grant me instant respect from people who don't know anything (and I include 95% of martial artists in that category) and I can use that. If I'm snagging a corner of a gym to work with some students at school, people who are annoyed that I'm taking up their space don't say **** and back off when they see me wrap around that black belt. I teach to a small group of friends and acquaintances and the occasional stranger a very eclectic mix of arts from my own personal grab bag of experience. I've presented this in different ways at different times. When someone asks what I teach, sometimes I just tell them its MMA and they usually write me off. ESPECIALLY if they have ANY training at all, but when I run through the litany of ranks, arts, and trophies people get interested and ASK if they can train with me. So the rank undoubtably confers a level of legitimacy that is necessary if you wish to attract students.
Now as to what you should rank in, thats a whole lot more complicated. I firmly believe that just ranking for the sake of rank is a bad business to be in. Don't ally your name and reputation with any org that you don't fully respect and support. ITs not fair to your students either when you advertise something you don't plan on really teaching. If you really want to get some rank the ONLY respectable option is to find a school/org that you respect, that teaches a style that you respect, then you enroll and earn THEIR respect, until they see fit to grant you the rank you are seeking. Anything else and you are propagating the McDojo paradigm. Martial arts should mean something, and so should your rank. Otherwise, you're just another chump in a strip mall school trying to make a buck.
That may sound harsh, but its honest. And honesty is one of the virtues we martial artists are supposed to venerate.
Shut up and train
Posted On:5/04/2003 2:35am
I found the website. its http://www.leejkd.com
Check it out, see if you're interested.
--A poor band player I was, but now I am crocodile king. --
Posted On:5/04/2003 3:06am
I really like JKD but I don't think that they have sorted out their political problems enough for their ranking system to be something that would help me in the way that I am talking about.
I totally agree. My problem is .. well, these are the only schools
in my area that I have found via web searches and the phone book:
The local ATA school:
The expensive but MMA oriented local JKD
Concepts and BJJ school:
Manning Family TKD Center
(Hapkido, Judo, Jujitsu):
*KUNJA Academy of Self-defense
(law enforcement instructor)
- not much info on it yet -
* ISU just lost Jason Winkle to West Point so their current MA instructor is one of his old students. I need to check him out. I am pretty sure the new guy mainly teaches TKD/Hapkido)
The BJJ/JKD school might be the only way to go.
(I haven't checked the bulliten board at the MA supplies store yet - there might be some small schools listed there)
Edited by - 9chambers on May 04 2003 03:13:22
Articles and Reviews
Tools and Info