Re: Heel hooks

**Shawarma** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 1:24pm

Thank you, sir, but I was more thinking of the difference between Achilles Tendon Hold and Straight Ankle Lock, just so I can see if ICY and I are on the same page.

And just for laughs and winces, here's Frank Shamrock hurting some poor guy with the heelhook: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...99&q=heel+hook

**Captain Spaulding** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 1:28pm

Oh. There was an article in Grappling magazine a few months ago about leg locks which went over the differences. I'll see if I can find it online...

**Camus** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 1:30pm

Originally Posted by I Choke You

Then there's the straight ankle lock that will break your ankle/foot, it is based on joint destruction, not pain.

I thought the straight ankle lock was also about tearing the muscle that runs along the front of your shin. I feel a pretty good 'stretch' in that one after fighting those for awhile, on the right side anyway, as left ankle is so weak it's a quick pop and tap.

I like to do the achilles with that reverse grip, so if you're taking the lock on your right side, you slip your left arm under their leg and grab your right bicep, putting your right hand on top on their shin, very very tight grip. That is some brutal pain right there.

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 4:04pm

The achilles and straight ankle lock look basically the same.

With one you're trying to submit them via forearm to the achilles tendon.

With the other, you're trying to submit them by bending their foot downward so far that tendons or bones break.

To go for the ankle, instead of the achilles tendon, you move your forearm lower, closer to their ankle and lean back so that their foot bends down.

**JohnnyS** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 5:09pm

Same side heel hook beats ankle lock.
Cross-body (inside) heel hook beats same-side heel hook (and virtually everything else).

Cross-body heel hooks are the most damaging heel hooks, ICY I don't know why you think differently but you must have been taught wrong.

**Meager** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 5:50pm

Originally Posted by Camus

I thought the straight ankle lock was also about tearing the muscle that runs along the front of your shin. .

A few months ago I (stupidly) decided to not tap to an ankle lock while rolling. I had a grip on the guy's gi but I was laying back so it hurt like a bitch but it didn't feel like anything was going to break. After 20 seconds or so I finally managed to sit up fully and work my way out. The muscle on the front on my shin hurt like a bitch anytime I put pressure on it in the wrong spot for about six weeks afterwards.

**Strong Machine** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 7:15pm

I don't tap to anything because it hurts.But a couple people I roll with can still tap me on what you guys are calling an achillies lock.Not because my achillies is in pain, or being damaged.But because if I let it go and go and go... and they are good, so they have my leg entwined enough that I cannot get out... it sure starts to feel like my shin bone is bending.I tell myself it's only my imagination, but when a strong man knows how to secure it perfectly and use the force of his opunching his hips forward(basically the power he'd use in a deadlift) I believe he can shatter my shin bone.Though it's never happened, so I can;t be sure.But I once felt as some of you do, I felt that way about a bicep crush too.One fractured forearm bone later and now I'm not so sure...I distinguish between an achillies crush and a shinlock.I could define them, but we all got our own definitions.I don't need to add to the confusion.
PS I thought I knew leglocks when I did BJJ.Later I trained sambo and straight submission grappling.I then knew I didn;t know leglocks when I did BJJ.Because my teacher didn't.Though that was years ago.Nowadays BJJers tend to know legs much better than then.

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 7:35pm

Cross-body heel hooks are the most damaging heel hooks, ICY I don't know why you think differently but you must have been taught wrong.

No, I've realized I was just not thinking of the same technique, you're right. Outside heel hook to me means attacking the outside of the knee, from whatever angle, inside, attacking the inside (hence my reason for calling it a shitty submission).

SELFOWNED!

I don't tap to anything because it hurts.But a couple people I roll with can still tap me on what you guys are calling an achillies lock.Not because my achillies is in pain, or being damaged.But because if I let it go and go and go... and they are good, so they have my leg entwined enough that I cannot get out... it sure starts to feel like my shin bone is bending.

I tap to it too, against guys strong enough and good enough that I can't escape, but it IS because of pain, because I know it's just going to hurt more later if I don't tap, and I'm not going to get out. However, I'll put my shin bone up against most people's forearms...I figure their arm will break first.

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 2/26/2006 10:38pm

The last time I tapped to an achilles lock the guy applying it was nearly seven feet tall, which granted him enough leverage to break ****. He could also do a thrusting choke inside guard from so far away it negated the armbar counter.

**Fighting Cephalopod** · Posted On: 2/27/2006 10:46am

Originally Posted by Raynor

Straight ankle locks DO do minimal damage. People tap to them because they don't want to deal with it, as minimal damage is still damage, but you can't really compare them to heel hooks or something.

You are wrong, for reasons already elucidated in my post directly above yours. Please shut up.