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  1. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 1:09am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Caught Red-handed: ATA TKD Black Belts Teaching Crappling?

    One of our local free newspapers ran an article ( http://www.leovia.com/?q=node/504 ) this week about a series of excellent amateur MMA events held in the lovely city of Louisville, KY. Though the article was fairly positive in nature, the author made several assertions that I feel were in error, and omitted some important information.

    My main three complaints are as follows:

    A.) The author asserts that the UFC popularized MMA worldwide.

    B.) He makes no mention of larger international organizations that have/will be holding events in the U.S.

    C.) He then does a technique demonstration ( http://www.leovia.com/?q=image/tid/66 ) with another martial artist that is full of errors. Errors that only a crappler with little-to-no mat time would make.

    Exhibit A:



    I have seen worse arm bar attempts (the right knee should be pointed toward the head, the thumb of the arm being attacked should be pointed up, etc), but this picture made me curious. Black belts? There aren't any BJJ black belts in Kentucky. A quick search of the local Judo dojo's website showed that neither of these martial artists hold any signficant rank in Judo.

    Exhibit B:



    Wait a second . . . that doesn't look like any kind of grappling gi.

    Exhibit C:



    I'm not an expert on leg locks, but as far as I know, this is a good example of how NOT to do a heel hook. The person performing the heel hook should have laced his right leg over the leg he is attacking, or at the very least, blocked the hip. There is nothing preventing the person being heel hooked from getting out it.

    Exhibit D:



    Quote Originally Posted by Caption
    Key Lock •
    A key lock is a submission hold that is not frequently used, but can be very effective when properly applied. One drawback to this hold is that the opponent has a free hand to strike with.
    A.) Note the poor base of the person applying this technique. Also, note that he does not figure four his hands. I tried doing a keylock his way and could generate very little leverage. His left elbow should be on the mat, blocking the head. Preferably at a 90 degree angle to the arm he is locking

    B.) ". . . the opponent has a free hand to strike with." The opponent is not going to be striking you while you key lock him. He is going to be submitting or having his shoulder destroyed. The only striking going on will be the opponent striking the nearest surface repeatedly to tap out.

    Exhibit E:



    If you look closely, you can see "ATA" clearly emblazoned on the patch located above the mounted martial artist's right breast. ATA = American Tae Kwon Do Association. Also notice the myriad trophies in the background. If a grappling school had this many trophies, I would have heard about it.

    Exhibit F:



    Guy on top's leg positioning is begging for guy on bottom to regain guard. Guy on bottom's left arm is in an incredibly vulnerable position, especially considering that he has his hands clasped.

    Exhibit G:



    This shoot is horrible. The man attempting the shoot should not be bent over the way he is. His level should be lowered. In fact, there is nothing correct about this shoot that I can determine. The man doing the sprawl should have his legs kicked out farther and wider. This photo looks more like he is standing upright. His arms are also in a fairly poor position. He should be using his arms to block the arms of the man shooting in some fashion.

    Exhibit H:



    Quote Originally Posted by Caption
    Shoulder Lock •
    The shoulder lock is similar to the key lock; effective, but the opponent has many opportunities to counter.
    A.) Again, look at the horrible base. No way is the person applying the kimura going to finish from there. At the very least, his left leg should be stepped over the other demonstrator's head. Beyond that, his grip is not figure foured (same as in the key lock). I could not generate significant leverage with this grip, and I am far larger than the man appyling this lock.

    B. ". . . but the opponent has many opportunities to counter." True, the kimura from side control can be hard to finish, but I get the feeling that the author is again asserting that you can strike your way out of the situation. My interpretation could be incorrect here. Regardless, if you have the kimura locked with your leg blocking your opponent's head, he is going to have a fairly hard time countering this technique.

    Status of my investigation: Early, but promising (or not, depending on your perspective). Searches of bjj.org and on google have turned up little information about either of these martial artists (Mclaughlin and Vogt). My current suspicion is that they hold rank in no competent grappling arts. Regardless of any rank they do hold, they are clearly showing crappling. These pictures are all supposedly representative of the techniques they describe, and they are in no way, shape or form, proper technique.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  2. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 1:12am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To continue my research, I have sent an initial email to the LEO newspaper A.) stating my complaints and B.) offering a solution to the issue. Here is a copy of that email, with personal information removed:

    To Whom It May Concern:

    As an avid Mixed Martial Arts fan and as a current student of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (and former Boxing and Muay Thai student), I would like to complement you on publishing an article that does not take an inflammatory position on the subject. However, the article (link: http://www.leovia.com/?q=node/504) has some inaccuracies and omissions in it that I feel should be addressed.

    1.) In paragraph 2 of page 13 of the print article (final sentence), the author makes a statement to the effect that the UFC popularized Mixed Martial Arts worldwide. This is simply not true. Vale Tudo has been wildly popular in Brazil for much of the 20th Century, and organized Mixed Martial Arts Competitions have existed (and been popular) in Japan since at least the 1980s. A cursory check of Wikipedia (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_m...History_of_MMA) would have shown this. The sad fact is that MMA is just now gain popularity in the United States. To your average reader this distinction might not matter, but to a fan of the sport, this error undermines the credibility of both the author and the paper.

    2.) The article omits any mention whatsoever of more popular Mixed Martial Arts organizations. I understand that the UFC is at the height of popularity in the U.S. currently, but there are far larger organizations out there that have had or will have fight cards in the United States. The two major organizations I am referring to are Pride Fighting Championship (http://www.pridefc.com/) and K-1 (http://www.k-1usa.net), which is mainly a Kickboxing organization, but also features MMA fights on its cards. These organizations deserved to be mentioned, at the very least.

    3.) My final complaint is regarding the “Martial Arts Moves: a visual primer” (link: http://www.leovia.com/?q=image/tid/66) section, which is demonstrated by Mclaughlin and Vogt. The techniques they demonstrate are, in fact, grappling techniques often seen in MMA. Mclaughlin and Vogt, however, manage to do a woefully incompetent job of demonstrating them. No competent grappler or Mixed Martial Artist applies the techniques in the manner demonstrated. The worst offenders in this batch of techniques are: the arm bar, heel hook, key lock, side mount, and shoulder lock. In no way am I kidding when I say that a novice grappler with only a few months’ experience would cringe if he saw these techniques performed so poorly. I take issue with the author’s analysis of the drawbacks and peculiarities of the key lock, heel hook, and shoulder lock as well. These blatant errors led me to do a bit of research on the martial artists demonstrating the techs. As nearly as I can determine, they are ATA Tae Kwon Do black belts (Tae Kwon Do being primarily a striking art, not a grappling art), have no Mixed Martial Arts fight records, and little to no grappling experience. Feel free to correct me if my research is mistaken.

    In an attempt to create a positive outcome from my complaints, I would like to invite the LEO as well as Mclaughlin and Vogt to the school I train at to watch and/or participate in class ([School name and website url removed] [Fighter Name Removed], an amateur fighter featured on both the local fight cards discussed in this article, trains with us). This is, of course, a friendly invitation. Everyone is welcome to participate as much or as little as they desire. In no way am I implying that Mclaughlin and/or Vogt are not skilled martial artists overall, just that they are not skilled at the particular area they chose to demonstrate. I believe in the free exchange of information, especially about something that I am so passionate about, and would not hesitate to show anyone expressing a desire to learn everything I have to teach. While I am not the instructor at our facility, I am fairly certain he would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate and teach anything that was requested. I have informed him of my invitation and am waiting for his response. I will inform the LEO of his final approval/disapproval as soon as I get the word, assuming there is an interest in attending one of our classes.

    I thank you for taking the time to read my rather lengthy email. I have great hopes that something productive will come from it.

    Sincerely,

    Garbanzo Bean
    Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Blue Belt
    [Phone number removed]
    [email address removed]
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  3. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 1:16am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I should have ample free time in the next few days to send queries to surrounding TKD schools to try to locate the training camp of the accused.

    I see two significant problems with this demonstration, hence my investigation:

    1.) Two crapplers could conceivably teach their students crappling, leading to possible injury or death if the circumstances to apply said techniques in a life-threatening situation arise.

    2.) The LEO is a newspaper. Its credibility is at stake here. If they printed inaccurate information, they should be held accountable.

    One thing I ask: To those who choose to assist me, leave my school, my school's website (should you discover its name and/or url), and my personal information out of this investigation unless the need becomes dire. I have more than ample reason for not wanting my personal information on the web. If an administrator has a problem with this, I would also ask that he or she PM me. I will be more than happy to explain myself.
    Last edited by Cassius; 2/23/2006 1:20am at .
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  4. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 1:19am

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     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pos rep and all that ****.

    Unfortunately, many cops are uneducated in the difference between legitimate and the above stated grappling, good on you for trying to educate them.
  5. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 1:29am

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The hideous mistakes being made in literally every single picture makes me want to beat up mr. handwraps.
  6. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 1:33am

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    These are great examples of Crappling. Good Yob.
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  7. MEGALEF is offline

    Still digging on James Brown

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 1:54am


     Style: BJJ & Judo (1k)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ATA teaching stuff they have no business teaching??

    Who'da thunk it?!
  8. josebjjsambo09 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 2:12am


     Style: brazilian jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well what **** is a fucking dude learning submissions from a **** taekwondo guy?
  9. eviechu is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 2:15am


     Style: Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    exhibit G should be captioned how to make your opponent fart to distract him enough to pull guard.
  10. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2006 2:22am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Amusing, but I honestly want fairly serious discussion on this thread. A little trolling is okay, but I would like this to be as professional as possible given the circumstances.

    I'm trying to help set a good example for other prospective "Bullshido" forum (as in this specific forum on bullshido, not all forums) posters.

    An example of a helpful post would be to point out more crappling in the pictures I have featured. I know I left a few things out related to positioning, so have at that.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
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