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  1. NoMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 7:42pm


     Style: Boxing, Judo, BJJ, M.T.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll let you in on some statistics I picked up while researching crime and how criminals attack. 80% of females are attacked from behind and immediately end up on the ground.

    In the class, we were told by the instructors that this was psychological, the men felt ashamed to be attacking women and hence did it from behind to avoid humanizing the faces of their victims. Whether or not you accept the psychological explanation, most women are attacked from behind.

    Second, learn something about rape as well. Most women who are raped know the person who does it. What happens is usually what we call "escalating aggression". Guy buys dinner, movie, and drinks and think this entitles him to sex. Woman disagrees. The argument builds up more and more until the guy ends up raping the girl. The worst thing the woman could do is punch the guy in the face as this is a guaranteed aggression escalator. Smarter would be to teach the woman how to recognize signs of escalating aggression, how to talk to him to avoid him getting more upset and likely to use force, etc.

    Also, since the group will probably already be in a hugging/kissing/fondling position already, they are already in the grappling range.

    Let's review now. I can ramble so people sometimes lose my points. Recapping:

    Point One: Most common rape scenario. Usually is date rape and usually is a form of escalating aggression. The woman will already be in the grappling range as this person knows her and is close to her already. Striking will not help much.

    Point Two: The rapist that beats the women up and leaves them for dead. Typically attacks from behind and is quick and sudden with the violence before the women realize what is happening. The woman will be on the ground before she even knows she is being attacked.

    In other words, any striking scenario is devoid of any and all experience related to actual rape cases and what occurs when an attacker rapes a woman. The best bet would be to learn movements that allow a woman to quickly escape from the ground and run away. Following that, any type of submission movement will vastly beat any strike because submissions require leverage moreso than strikes do. I've trained about a dozen female boxers, and I'll let you in on a "no duh" secret. Men hit a lot harder than women do, even highly trained women. Trading blows with someone is straight up moronic for a female who is not trained to fight.

    In two hours, there is not a lot you could teach that would be useful for self-defense. A much more wise use of the time would be explaining how to recognize escalating aggression, learn how to avoid places that are close to a populated area but too far away for people to help, (rooms at a house party away from the main scene, the parking lot outside of a grocery store, etc.), get a dog, avoid parking next to van's, and so forth and so on.

    To me, this is the highest level of bullshido. They are teaching stuff that will get a woman raped or murdered, because they do not know what the **** they are talking about. You can only hope they don't have to use this stuff in a real fight. The only advantage is that statistics show women who fight their rapists have a better survival rate than women who don't. (*) Like any predator, he's looking for an easy mark, and putting up a fight will discourage many of them. Tae Kwon Do simply ain't the tool for the job.

    (* Psychologists divide rapists up into profiles. Date rapists are the most likely to stop because of a hard fight. The "beat and mug" type of rapist will usually get worse if the victim fights back.)
    Last edited by NoMan; 9/22/2006 7:48pm at .
  2. ronin56003 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 1:56pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do (ITF)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Perhaps I can shed some light on what was done during those 2 hrs, this is the school I go to. It was a women's self defense class so I wasn't actually there, so I'll get more exact information later from the owner and instructors.

    1. I believe that they spent some time talking about recognizing dangerous situations and how to stay away from them.

    2. They weren't showing them TKD specific manuvers, but simple quick "effective" manuvers to break away and create space. (again, I will have to talk with the owner/instructors on specifics)

    3. I'm all up for people learning grappling. These men are overpowering women, what is to stop these men from picking them up and slamming them down when the women tries to put on a choke or lock?

    oh, and the board breaking was just in the news, not in class.
    Last edited by ronin56003; 9/25/2006 2:49pm at .
  3. urdumb2006 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 9:53am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It looks like you shut everybody up
  4. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 11:18am


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin56003
    3. I'm all up for people learning grappling. These men are overpowering women, what is to stop these men from picking them up and slamming them down when the women tries to put on a choke or lock?
    Gee, why don't you go try doing that to a <120 lb BJJ blue belt?
  5. NoMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 1:14pm


     Style: Boxing, Judo, BJJ, M.T.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin56003
    Perhaps I can shed some light on what was done during those 2 hrs, this is the school I go to. It was a women's self defense class so I wasn't actually there, so I'll get more exact information later from the owner and instructors.

    1. I believe that they spent some time talking about recognizing dangerous situations and how to stay away from them.

    2. They weren't showing them TKD specific manuvers, but simple quick "effective" manuvers to break away and create space. (again, I will have to talk with the owner/instructors on specifics)

    3. I'm all up for people learning grappling. These men are overpowering women, what is to stop these men from picking them up and slamming them down when the women tries to put on a choke or lock?

    oh, and the board breaking was just in the news, not in class.
    If that's what was taught, good for them for teaching something useful. It's still hearsay though, all we have is the newsclip and that didn't make things look good for them.

    The last question is a good one, but most people aren't going to slam you while you put on a lock or choke, because they injure themselves and the person they slam. Most people get slammed when they are laying in the guard w/o working for anything. Anyone more advanced just stands up whenever a guard slam is attempted, or goes for the flying armbar.
  6. ronin56003 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2006 4:07pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do (ITF)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    Gee, why don't you go try doing that to a <120 lb BJJ blue belt?

    Can you become a blue belt in BJJ in a 2 hr seminar?
  7. ronin56003 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2006 4:23pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do (ITF)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NoMan
    If that's what was taught, good for them for teaching something useful. It's still hearsay though, all we have is the newsclip and that didn't make things look good for them.

    The last question is a good one, but most people aren't going to slam you while you put on a lock or choke, because they injure themselves and the person they slam. Most people get slammed when they are laying in the guard w/o working for anything. Anyone more advanced just stands up whenever a guard slam is attempted, or goes for the flying armbar.
    Ok, slamming aside. What, if any, moves/techniques would you show for these women to use trying to stay away from these predators. Obviously knowledge of not getting into vulnerable situations is of utmost importance vs learn a bunch of moves (but still important).

    Would you show them escapes to intial grabs like a wrist or hair that these attackers could possibly use to stop them from getting away?

    Bearhug/tackle from behind?

    Do you most of the moves that require standing up as that is usually how an encounter will start? or from a prone position as to that is the most dangerous?

    Are these moves simple enough to a) execute in a few secs, b) get/keep them on their feet to run away, c) can be taught and practiced to 30 people in 2hrs minus speaking about identifying and removing oneself from these situations.

    I haven't had a chance to really sit down and speak to the owner of our school to get specifics. I hope to sometime this next week (work has been keeping me busy)
  8. Featherstone is offline

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    Tarpon Springs, Fl
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2006 4:45pm


     Style: wah lum kungfu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The main thing to remeber here, rape is not done in a controled cage match, it is real life. Victim A walking to there car with an armload of groceries. Perp A see's said victim and waits till she is bent over either in the trunk/hatch back, back seat or front seat. The attack, at this point, they have one thing on there mind, most wont give a rats ass if they get hurt a bit, there there for the rush, to get off. So yes, an attacker would slam the victim down at there own expense, maybe they want to shut there prey up? The key is being aware, and if the unthinkable happens, how to get free with as much of yourself intact as possible. Joe and Jane World dont care about triangle chokes or arm bars, when put in a crisis situation, there not thinking about where to strike, there thinking "Oh ****, not me, not now" It has to be basic instinct or nothing at all.
    Last edited by Featherstone; 9/29/2006 4:49pm at .
  9. Jez is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2006 3:17am


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    YEAH well it could be worse. some hapkido joints sell kubotans for womens self - defence.

    'Kubotan strikes are most effective at medium range such as when an assailant reaches out to grab or push his victim. The extending limb can be disabled with a quick, snapping strike.'

    I figured these things sucked when i was like 8.
  10. NoMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2006 8:28am


     Style: Boxing, Judo, BJJ, M.T.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In two hours, I wouldn't show them anything as far as basic escapes go. A rapist isn't going to grab the wrist. That I've personally encountered as far as rape goes:

    1.) Victim was in the room of a hotel and the perpetrator was drunk. He knocks on the door and she answers. He rushes the door when she opens it, tackles her, punches her unconscious, and rapes her.

    2.) Victim was in her house and the rapist was waiting outside. She opens up a window to let the room air out. Perpetrator, (Piece of ****) goes into the house threw the window with a knife, holds it to the victim's throat, and rapes her. Victim hit speed dial on her phone and dialed her mom, who heard the sounds going on and called the police.

    I've encountered rap-ish situations while I've been in the military. I don't put those in the same category because those stories sound like this: "Well, we were both having drinks and I wanted to sleep with him, but he didn't say he loved me while we were having sex, so I didn't want him anymore. Was I raped?" (Yes, that same scenario has happened 3 times while I've been in service.) Not to be insensitive, but I just can't compare having a tiff with your boyfriend a rape scenario in the same sense as having someone beat you to a pulp or put a knife to your throat. Sorry ladies.

    I've seen wrist grabs more often whenever couples argue. I haven't seen rapists use it. They typically tackle and attack from behind. GnP if they're violent, else they warn the victim they will get violent if the person screams. Fights with small people against big people usually end up on the ground, and in this case, that's the aim of the rapist. So, it's more important to teach covering and striking from the guard, guard reversals, avoiding takedowns, and quick escaping rather than wrist-grabs or bear-hugs. Bear hug takedowns do happen, but they're quicker than most people think to escape them.

    So, in my scenario of what I would teach:

    1.) Signs of awareness. When approaching the car, do you have your keys already or are you fumbling for them? Does the person look around while walking or seem unaware of the surroundings? This is how criminals gauge their targets.

    2.) Get a dog. Not only are they awesome, but interviews with rapists show that dogs are a huge factor in whether or not they'll attack a woman.

    3.) Avoiding 'outside' areas. Places like rooms at a house party, empty lots outside of a grocery store, alleys near a bar, places near a major source of activity that someone will be going there, but not often enough that too many people could discover what's going on.

    4.) Escapes from mounted, guard, and other positions. This would have to take place over a more prolonged course, with the intent on teaching them how to avoid situations where the person is attempting to choke them or punch them while in the ground. The attack will occur without warning, so there won't be squaring up or any type of on-the-feet fighting. It will usually go to the ground before the victim is even aware of what's going on.
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