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  1. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 3:00pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Historically, there were no Black Belts in Karate, period, not until after the founding of what we today would call Shotokan karate which started using them either the late 1920s and early 1930s. Funny, the martial arts didn't seem to suffer from their absence back then.

    I hope you tell your students when they initially sign up for the lower price, that to actually progress to black belt they'll have to upgrade to the $300 option.

    And I find it amusing that you say that there is nothing wrong with awarding Black Belts to children and then didn't comment on the John Graden quote I featured that commented on the pitfalls of doing so. Children can benefit from training in the martial arts just as they can benefit from youth soccer, but having belt standards that facilitate youth promotion lowers standards in a school for such rank.

    As for our tiered pricing, the difference is $20 period, with the first option being free service. Not a difference of approximately $150 a month, each and every month for a price of about $300 as is the case in your school.

    You'll post again :)
  2. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 5:18pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    As for me......

    I was in Navasota, Texas (Between Houston & Dallas)

    In August. With Flies & Mosquitos the size of MAC Trucks. At Chuck Norris's ranch. In an unairconditioned Garage turned Gym.

    With Carlos Machado sitting on my chest.

    He was Sweating, Grinning, Farting, and generally humiliating me in front of Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, and Mike Sawyer (and, my girlfriend!)

    That was a moment of realization for me to stick with Kickboxing/Karate/TKD/Boxing.
    You see, for most people this probably would have convinced them to begin training Jiu-Jitsu. But hey, if you like getting beat up and farted on, thats your choice I guess.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 5:31pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For someone who downgrades and disparages sport fighting, you sure name drop many sport fighters.
  4. El-Wood is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 8:13pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    Sufice it to say:

    Some of you believe that MA Schools shouldn't use contracts - I disagree.
    I think you will find a wide range of feelings on that. Anyone who has run a business and understands the importance of actually being able to accurately predict your cash flows would probably find contracts to be a necessary evil. Of course it depends on the contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    Some of you disagree with "tiered pricing systems", I disagree. You have it here on this forum. United Airlines has it for passenger seats, Volvo has it for SUV's (ie, V-8, vs. V-6, various options), Harvard charges less per class hour for Undergraduate, than for Graduate Studies and many, many, many others. Let's agree to disagree.
    Yes, but, Volvo doesn't tell you it's giving you a V8 then after you've signed the contract gives you a V6 and say "we can't give you a V8, you don't know how to drive that big a car, for an extra $100 a month we can give you the training and a V8".

    And, unless something has changed in the last 10 years, Harvard charges a flat fee per semester to attend, both for graduate and undergraduate studies. You are free to take as many courses as you can handle during that semester. Cornell is the same way (and I know they haven't change). So your example is most likely chosen out of ignorance and an attempt to say you are the Harvard of MA instruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    Some of you believe that the primary purpose of Martial Arts Training is Combat - I disagree.
    The vast majority of Japanese would disagree with you (ninjers and aikidoists aside)... And they're some of the LARPingest folks I've met.

    So - since you've dodged the question multiple times now - I think it is safe to say that you are a Bullshido artist of the highest caliber - worse then some because you are telling people they are getting 1 thing, then after they sign the contract they find out that they must purchase something additional to actually get what the originally signed up for...
  5. biomed190 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 9:07pm


     Style: JKD BJJ JUDO MUY THAI

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Last night we had a UFC party for all the people at my DOJO. We got to discussing different Dojos around town and I had to show all the people about Mile High Karate here on Bullshido. Everybody had a good laugh when they saw his ridiculous pricing plan. The owner of my dojo said if the parents wanted he would tell the kids to clean their room free of charge in the original pricing plan.
  6. Doctor X is offline
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    ARGUMENTUM AD LATINUM DICTIONAIRUM

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 11:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Argumenta ad Rem

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    Of course it does.
    Ipse dixit, but incorrect.

    Large amounts of fallacious verbage follows. . . .

    That will be incongruent with what we've held a Black Belt and a Martial Artist to be.
    Name that fallacy kids! By capitalizing something you try to make it more than it really is. Should have gone for the trifecta with "Warrior."

    Samuel's point is well noted. Furthermore, most traditional "karate" on Okinawa did not bother with any ranking until mandated in the mid to late 50s.

    They'll be embarrassed to see your logo with the extended middle finger.
    Yes . . . bait Omega . . . that is a winning rhetorical strategy. . . .

    All of it is a grand argumentum ad captandum vulgus--appealing to these straw families who will consider us Disgraces--not just "disgraces" but Disgraces . . . dare I write DISGRACES--to Black Belts, Martial Artists, and Warriors.

    None of it is relevant to the objections of Samuel and others. This is part and parcel of the argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam fallacy--toss out a whole bunch of irrelevant arguments in the hope to obscure the point of a debate.

    Why fallacies are important kids! True sign of failed critical thinking.

    Goes on and on. . . .

    All of my Martial Arts School Coaching Clients and our Mile High Karate staff
    Should that not be "My Martial Arts School Coaching Clients and Our Mile High Karate Staff?" I mean, have not the staff . . . er . . . Staff earned the respect as Black Belts and Martial Artists? No need to demean them in this fashion.

    Goes on and on . . .

    The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    --J. "A Man of Infinite Jest" D.
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 12:19am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    Of course it does.

    Running at a loss: Been there done that - most businesses have.

    No, there's really no difference.
    Yes there is but talking to you would like human being would be like talking to dog, you'll just sit there and wag your tail oblivious to the facts.

    If the service offerings are attractive people will want to participate and to pay. If the site attracts enough eyeballs money comes in through pay per click, sponsorships, etc. Is it worth $500 per month? Maybe. Depends upon who you are and what you are trying to accomplish.
    Yeah, and you call yourself a marketer? Name 1 website that does it and we'll talk.

    You are not offended by all this trash talk being supported by advertising and upgrade systems but, somehow are offended by people running quality schools in a way that does not conform to your vision of proper curriculum or your idealized structure for pricing & contractual relationships.
    I'm not offended by quality school, I'm not even offended by you. I just think you're a joke and so does every instructor I've mentioned your name to. And I don't even mention this thread. The typical responses are "car salesman..used car salesman...Anthony Roberts wannabe"

    I think this site, the forums, the business model of this site, and the opportunity for entertainment that it provides to all be valuable. I have no problem with the model.
    Yay...

    Oh, and sure. My students, their parents, and other customers can google into this site anytime. I'll be embarrassed to see the interactions that people who hold themselves up to be "martial artists" have and the language and mud-slinging.That will be incongruent with what we've held a Black Belt and a Martial Artist to be.
    Did you miss the part where I don't think you're a martial artist? You're a marketing person. And from what I've seen a fairly good one. But not a martial artist.

    They'll be embarrassed to see your logo with the extended middle finger. They'll be entertained by all of the people who are willing to spout off behind a sheild of anomynity. And, a few may decide that they prefer UFC, MMA, BJJ, or some other type of training different than we offer, if so then it was good education for them. Others may decide to pursue schools priced at lower rates, that's their choice - and it won't be the first time - however, most when they compare come back to us.
    That's because you don't teach martial arts, you just take money. They'll be offended by the middle finger? Why? Are they that sheltered in their lives that they don't know crude humor when they see it? Are you telling me they've never said a vulgar word before? If this is true at least we know how you get the money out of them. Let me see which is more offensive you taking their money in exoberant amounts just to do basic life coaching in a group setting or my middle finger symbol? Where you'll side.

    Clearly you view UFC and the like to be the pinnacle of martial arts training. I find it an incredibly lucrative sport - since ownershp changed - quite possibly capable of displacing boxing in dollars, viewers, popularity. I do not see it as being representative of martial arts instruction in the U.S. or around the world.
    And the ignorant shall rant. I see the UFC as a sport that's it. You don't know 1 thing about me. I see that you actually fall back to the almighty dollar glad you view everything the same.

    The percentage of the population that will choose such training - really is on par with boxing and, boxing gyms haven't exactly filled after each title fight.

    However, lots of people who enjoy UFC but wouldn't consider participating - or, who really dislike UFC will become excellent martial arts students.
    Lots of people that enjoy XMA wouldn't consider participating in it. Does your arm get tired holding up all these straw men?

    The first UFC championship was the night before my Mile High Karate Classic. We co-promoted - at their request. My staff passed out flyers that said "You've seen the brutality, now learn about the art" They sold T-Shirts & other stuff at my event.
    I'm happy for you.

    Is UFC good for martial arts?

    Generally I believe that it is not.
    My enrollment doubled after the ultimate fighter. Despite my reputation as a traditional KF instructor I was the only one teaching MMA in my town.

    Is UFC's Financial Success (and, that of K-1) good for the fighters? Absolutely. The potential income is WAY up since the Days that that Joe Lewis, Jeff Smith, and Bill Wallace were champions. That means that better and better training methods will come into being, more athletes will consider pursuing MMA rather than other alternatives, and more and more quality will rise to the top.

    I'm not going to run off to watch UFC - I gave away the tickets I'd been given to the July event in Vegas, since I'm not particularly interested in watching the event.

    To each their own.
    I forgot you must have an accountant balancing your check book. Then again I don't watch football so you're right to each there own.

    All of my Martial Arts School Coaching Clients and our Mile High Karate staff have all been emailed the link to this site and to the two "threads" - and, told that if they need some "Tension Relieving, not Goal Achieving" activity that they may find it entertaining or enlightening.
    And let's see if any of them post.






    P.S. With regards to your on-going posts. I really don't have time to continue engaging in this activity.

    Sufice it to say:

    Some of you believe that MA Schools shouldn't use contracts - I disagree.

    Some of you disagree with "tiered pricing systems", I disagree. You have it here on this forum. United Airlines has it for passenger seats, Volvo has it for SUV's (ie, V-8, vs. V-6, various options), Harvard charges less per class hour for Undergraduate, than for Graduate Studies and many, many, many others. Let's agree to disagree.

    Some of you believe that the primary purpose of Martial Arts Training is Combat - I disagree.

    Some of you believe that kids shouldn't train in MA's or should not receive Black Belts - I disagree. Historically, it was believed that women shouldn't train or receive Black Belts - I disagree with that also - most of you have gotten over that.

    Some of you believe that Martial Arts School owners shouldn't need business systems, marketing systems, or sales skills - I disagree - and, the % in Bankrupsy each year validate my opinion.

    If I've missed any other point of disagreement - then I apologize. Don't read my failure to respond as anything other than my failure to return and monitor what's been said. If you feel an overwhelming desire to continue sharing your opinion with me then:
    Post to your heart's content. FYI. View my profile, it's all open. Feel free to verify my background, credentials, or achievements - nothing is hidden.
    For the record everybody, I think we should thank Stephen Oliver for coming on here and wasting our time. I'm glad that none of my initial views on him were misplaced. I was thinking that I was going to have to apologize to him.

    My final conclusion is this. We each do martial arts for a different reason. We believe to that martial arts should have some combat to it as do a lot of Mr Oliver's peers, but he neglected to justify his point of view. We've argued the contract thing to death but Mr. Oliver being as self centered as he is only wanted to revolve and promote himself as well as he could. Mr Oliver thinks that children should get a blackbelt but that is another long debate that he reflected upon himself.

    There is nothing wrong with running a martial art school as a business. There's nothing wrong with charging what you feel you deserve. I think the one thing that Mr Oliver kept failing to see was that we were agreeing with him on many points. He doesn't claim to really teach martial arts just teach life skills. It's just laughable that he keeps using that term. When I became cordial that surprised Mr. Oliver, why? Because he was all set to hold up some paper arguements to deviate from the facts.

    If your students are reading this I really hope they see the light but I doubt it. Oliver only wants your money people.
  8. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 12:28am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But will Stephen Oliver give me french fries with my Black Belt? For $300 a month I must insist on great service. :)
  9. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 12:33am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The funny sad thing is that I thought I might be wrong about Mr. Oliver. I thought he would seriously answer the questions and I would like his answers. I was already to possibly go fly out to Colorado and take his "bootcamp" but after all this, it isn't going to happen. Hey Sam I have a question, when have you been anonymous with your information on who you are?
  10. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 12:38am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I use my real name here, but Oliver evidently didn't pick up on that small detail. :)
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