2/04/2007 3:00pm, #41
Historically, there were no Black Belts in Karate, period, not until after the founding of what we today would call Shotokan karate which started using them either the late 1920s and early 1930s. Funny, the martial arts didn't seem to suffer from their absence back then.
I hope you tell your students when they initially sign up for the lower price, that to actually progress to black belt they'll have to upgrade to the $300 option.
And I find it amusing that you say that there is nothing wrong with awarding Black Belts to children and then didn't comment on the John Graden quote I featured that commented on the pitfalls of doing so. Children can benefit from training in the martial arts just as they can benefit from youth soccer, but having belt standards that facilitate youth promotion lowers standards in a school for such rank.
As for our tiered pricing, the difference is $20 period, with the first option being free service. Not a difference of approximately $150 a month, each and every month for a price of about $300 as is the case in your school.
You'll post again :)
2/04/2007 5:18pm, #42
Originally Posted by StephenOliver"Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
2/04/2007 5:31pm, #43
For someone who downgrades and disparages sport fighting, you sure name drop many sport fighters.
2/04/2007 8:13pm, #44
Originally Posted by StephenOliver
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Kanagawa, Japan
Originally Posted by StephenOliver
And, unless something has changed in the last 10 years, Harvard charges a flat fee per semester to attend, both for graduate and undergraduate studies. You are free to take as many courses as you can handle during that semester. Cornell is the same way (and I know they haven't change). So your example is most likely chosen out of ignorance and an attempt to say you are the Harvard of MA instruction.
Originally Posted by StephenOliver
So - since you've dodged the question multiple times now - I think it is safe to say that you are a Bullshido artist of the highest caliber - worse then some because you are telling people they are getting 1 thing, then after they sign the contract they find out that they must purchase something additional to actually get what the originally signed up for...
2/04/2007 9:07pm, #45
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
Last night we had a UFC party for all the people at my DOJO. We got to discussing different Dojos around town and I had to show all the people about Mile High Karate here on Bullshido. Everybody had a good laugh when they saw his ridiculous pricing plan. The owner of my dojo said if the parents wanted he would tell the kids to clean their room free of charge in the original pricing plan.
2/04/2007 11:28pm, #46Originally Posted by StephenOliver
Large amounts of fallacious verbage follows. . . .
That will be incongruent with what we've held a Black Belt and a Martial Artist to be.
Samuel's point is well noted. Furthermore, most traditional "karate" on Okinawa did not bother with any ranking until mandated in the mid to late 50s.
They'll be embarrassed to see your logo with the extended middle finger.
All of it is a grand argumentum ad captandum vulgus--appealing to these straw families who will consider us Disgraces--not just "disgraces" but Disgraces . . . dare I write DISGRACES--to Black Belts, Martial Artists, and Warriors.
None of it is relevant to the objections of Samuel and others. This is part and parcel of the argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam fallacy--toss out a whole bunch of irrelevant arguments in the hope to obscure the point of a debate.
Why fallacies are important kids! True sign of failed critical thinking.
Goes on and on. . . .
All of my Martial Arts School Coaching Clients and our Mile High Karate staff
Goes on and on . . .
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
--J. "A Man of Infinite Jest" D.
2/05/2007 12:19am, #47Originally Posted by StephenOliver
If the service offerings are attractive people will want to participate and to pay. If the site attracts enough eyeballs money comes in through pay per click, sponsorships, etc. Is it worth $500 per month? Maybe. Depends upon who you are and what you are trying to accomplish.
You are not offended by all this trash talk being supported by advertising and upgrade systems but, somehow are offended by people running quality schools in a way that does not conform to your vision of proper curriculum or your idealized structure for pricing & contractual relationships.
I think this site, the forums, the business model of this site, and the opportunity for entertainment that it provides to all be valuable. I have no problem with the model.
Oh, and sure. My students, their parents, and other customers can google into this site anytime. I'll be embarrassed to see the interactions that people who hold themselves up to be "martial artists" have and the language and mud-slinging.That will be incongruent with what we've held a Black Belt and a Martial Artist to be.
They'll be embarrassed to see your logo with the extended middle finger. They'll be entertained by all of the people who are willing to spout off behind a sheild of anomynity. And, a few may decide that they prefer UFC, MMA, BJJ, or some other type of training different than we offer, if so then it was good education for them. Others may decide to pursue schools priced at lower rates, that's their choice - and it won't be the first time - however, most when they compare come back to us.
Clearly you view UFC and the like to be the pinnacle of martial arts training. I find it an incredibly lucrative sport - since ownershp changed - quite possibly capable of displacing boxing in dollars, viewers, popularity. I do not see it as being representative of martial arts instruction in the U.S. or around the world.
The percentage of the population that will choose such training - really is on par with boxing and, boxing gyms haven't exactly filled after each title fight.
However, lots of people who enjoy UFC but wouldn't consider participating - or, who really dislike UFC will become excellent martial arts students.
The first UFC championship was the night before my Mile High Karate Classic. We co-promoted - at their request. My staff passed out flyers that said "You've seen the brutality, now learn about the art" They sold T-Shirts & other stuff at my event.
Is UFC good for martial arts?
Generally I believe that it is not.
Is UFC's Financial Success (and, that of K-1) good for the fighters? Absolutely. The potential income is WAY up since the Days that that Joe Lewis, Jeff Smith, and Bill Wallace were champions. That means that better and better training methods will come into being, more athletes will consider pursuing MMA rather than other alternatives, and more and more quality will rise to the top.
I'm not going to run off to watch UFC - I gave away the tickets I'd been given to the July event in Vegas, since I'm not particularly interested in watching the event.
To each their own.
All of my Martial Arts School Coaching Clients and our Mile High Karate staff have all been emailed the link to this site and to the two "threads" - and, told that if they need some "Tension Relieving, not Goal Achieving" activity that they may find it entertaining or enlightening.
P.S. With regards to your on-going posts. I really don't have time to continue engaging in this activity.
Sufice it to say:
Some of you believe that MA Schools shouldn't use contracts - I disagree.
Some of you disagree with "tiered pricing systems", I disagree. You have it here on this forum. United Airlines has it for passenger seats, Volvo has it for SUV's (ie, V-8, vs. V-6, various options), Harvard charges less per class hour for Undergraduate, than for Graduate Studies and many, many, many others. Let's agree to disagree.
Some of you believe that the primary purpose of Martial Arts Training is Combat - I disagree.
Some of you believe that kids shouldn't train in MA's or should not receive Black Belts - I disagree. Historically, it was believed that women shouldn't train or receive Black Belts - I disagree with that also - most of you have gotten over that.
Some of you believe that Martial Arts School owners shouldn't need business systems, marketing systems, or sales skills - I disagree - and, the % in Bankrupsy each year validate my opinion.
If I've missed any other point of disagreement - then I apologize. Don't read my failure to respond as anything other than my failure to return and monitor what's been said. If you feel an overwhelming desire to continue sharing your opinion with me then:
Post to your heart's content. FYI. View my profile, it's all open. Feel free to verify my background, credentials, or achievements - nothing is hidden.
My final conclusion is this. We each do martial arts for a different reason. We believe to that martial arts should have some combat to it as do a lot of Mr Oliver's peers, but he neglected to justify his point of view. We've argued the contract thing to death but Mr. Oliver being as self centered as he is only wanted to revolve and promote himself as well as he could. Mr Oliver thinks that children should get a blackbelt but that is another long debate that he reflected upon himself.
There is nothing wrong with running a martial art school as a business. There's nothing wrong with charging what you feel you deserve. I think the one thing that Mr Oliver kept failing to see was that we were agreeing with him on many points. He doesn't claim to really teach martial arts just teach life skills. It's just laughable that he keeps using that term. When I became cordial that surprised Mr. Oliver, why? Because he was all set to hold up some paper arguements to deviate from the facts.
If your students are reading this I really hope they see the light but I doubt it. Oliver only wants your money people.
2/05/2007 12:28am, #48
But will Stephen Oliver give me french fries with my Black Belt? For $300 a month I must insist on great service. :)
2/05/2007 12:33am, #49
The funny sad thing is that I thought I might be wrong about Mr. Oliver. I thought he would seriously answer the questions and I would like his answers. I was already to possibly go fly out to Colorado and take his "bootcamp" but after all this, it isn't going to happen. Hey Sam I have a question, when have you been anonymous with your information on who you are?
2/05/2007 12:38am, #50
I use my real name here, but Oliver evidently didn't pick up on that small detail. :)