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  1. OnceLost is offline
    OnceLost's Avatar

    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2007 6:57pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When did this thread turn into a sales pitch?
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  2. El-Wood is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2007 6:57pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Stephen, welcome back.

    From the other thread (which is why having multiple threads on the same subject is not a good idea) -

    Quote Originally Posted by el-wood
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    The next problem that sets the BS detector off is the different rate plans. Why does that have to happen? Oh yea. You need the money to make a living a feed your family. Instead of the ole bait and switch routine why not be honest? The classes are $250 a month you will get A, B, C, D, and E.
    Actually I do have a pretty big problem with this, noone has put it together and phrased it so concisely so I really didn't catch it. Grats to you jkartigue. Stephen, is it possible to get a "black belt" without signing up for the higher rate plan? Or is that a "requirement" to get the training for a "black belt"?

    If the answer is that you need to sign up for this special extra training that you only find out about after signing the initial contract then I would change my opinion from McDojo to the old Bait and Switch Bullshido... i.e. you are promising something you aren't delivering...
    From someone else's point - does the original contract have something in it about a limited avenue of advancement based on the lower priced contract? If so could you please copy the wording for us here?

    It has also been claimed in the other thread that with the lower priced contract a person is limited to the maximum rank of blue belt. Is that true? If it is true is that revealed to the prospective student/parents when they originally sign up or are they signing up under the impression that the training they are contracting to receive will be sufficient to reach a black belt rank? Again could you please post appropriate parts of your contract language.
  3. StephenOliver is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2007 11:13pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    Why are you just posting more and more testimonials? Trying to use this forum as cheap advertising is a bit lame, do you ever stop trying to market your various products?
    You're the one that decided to take Anonymous , illinformed, public pot-shots at the veracity of my content & of the testimonials presented.

    The attacks were clearly aimed at undermining my credibility with these attacks, I'm just sharing unfiltered feedback from customers with no vested interest who provided in most cases unsolicited comments.

    When did it become a "sales pitch" - when you started the "negative"pitch designed to undermind my efforts.

    You did so behind a veill with no effort ahead of your attacks to verify the accuracy of your postings.

    FYI.
    Keep in mind the purpose of this web site is to make money. There are paid & "pay per click" ads all over it. The reason for the discussion forums is to attract SEO traffic and the various threads keep peolple coming back to see the ads.

    Note the google "Pay per click" ads everywhere, the monthly "upgrade fees", and the various other paid ads and "sponsorships"


    Oh, and before I forget you have your own "Upgrade" sytems that I can choose to pay $10 a month, $20 a month, $500 per month or $4,000 per year for.
    For instance:

    Upgrade your Bullshido member account!


    Gold Level (Sponsor) Membership


    Are you serious about your commitment to improving standards and fighting the BS in the Martial arts? With our Sponsor/Gold-level membership, you not only get extended forum features, you are directly helping offset operating expenses and contribute to future projects and investigations. Extended features include:
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    Recognition of your special status as a with colored username.
    Up to 10% discount on Bullshido-related products.
    Your own You.Bullshido.Net subdomain with 100 MB of space and access to add your own blog.
    And the ability to use Thread Tags.
    $10 a month recurring subscription (billed every two months).

    Click here to upgrade now!

    Silver Level (Supporting) Membership


    Features:
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    Colored username
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    Access to extra forums such as the (facetiously named) "Black Belt Club*", Training Logs, and No Holds Barred forums
    Ability to store up to an additional 300 Private Messages (total: 500)
    A You@Bullshido.net webmail account
    Special discounts on future Bullshido merchandise
    And the ability to use Thread Tags.
    Not to mention the satisfaction of supporting and actively participating in a community devoted to improving the standards and fighting fraud, scams, and BS in the Martial Arts
    Only $20 per year!

    Click here to upgrade now!


    Forum Sponsorship/Advertisments


    Do you have a business or organization you want to be noticed? Well now you can sponsor a forum on Bullshido! The Bullshido forums are the #1 general Martial Arts forums on the Internet with hundreds of thousands of pages viewed by martial artists and combat sports fans around the world every month. By sponsoring a forum, you will get:
    A custom forum layout designed to feature/showcase your products or services.
    A special 150x50 block on the forum home page, with your own branding/logo. (We can provide custom graphic work if you need help with it, at no addtional charge). Example:
    Recognition as a Forum Sponsor for your user account (if you have one) with a custom title, colored username, and link to your group or business website.
    A featured link/banner image on the front page of Bullshido.
    Forum sponsorships run $500 per month, recurring, or $4000 a year ($2,000 savings!!!).
    Click here to upgrade now!



    *Continued access to "Black Belt Club" and related forums is contingent on adherence to certain standards and staff discretion. By accessing any restricted forum you consent to abide by any Nondisclosure Agreement implemented by the Bullshido staff, in effect either now or in the future. No refund
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

    Administrator

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    West Coast
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2007 11:43pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    You're the one that decided to take Anonymous , illinformed, public pot-shots at the veracity of my content & of the testimonials presented.

    The attacks were clearly aimed at undermining my credibility with these attacks, I'm just sharing unfiltered feedback from customers with no vested interest who provided in most cases unsolicited comments.

    When did it become a "sales pitch" - when you started the "negative"pitch designed to undermind my efforts.

    You did so behind a veill with no effort ahead of your attacks to verify the accuracy of your postings.

    FYI.
    Keep in mind the purpose of this web site is to make money. There are paid & "pay per click" ads all over it. The reason for the discussion forums is to attract SEO traffic and the various threads keep peolple coming back to see the ads.

    Note the google "Pay per click" ads everywhere, the monthly "upgrade fees", and the various other paid ads and "sponsorships"


    Oh, and before I forget you have your own "Upgrade" sytems that I can choose to pay $10 a month, $20 a month, $500 per month or $4,000 per year for.
    For instance:

    Upgrade your Bullshido member account!


    Gold Level (Sponsor) Membership


    Are you serious about your commitment to improving standards and fighting the BS in the Martial arts? With our Sponsor/Gold-level membership, you not only get extended forum features, you are directly helping offset operating expenses and contribute to future projects and investigations. Extended features include:
    All of the features of a Silver-level Supporting Member.
    Recognition of your special status as a with colored username.
    Up to 10% discount on Bullshido-related products.
    Your own You.Bullshido.Net subdomain with 100 MB of space and access to add your own blog.
    And the ability to use Thread Tags.
    $10 a month recurring subscription (billed every two months).

    Click here to upgrade now!

    Silver Level (Supporting) Membership


    Features:
    Special designation as a
    Colored username
    Extended forum/posting privilages such as the ability to post Polls, Signatures, and Upload pictures
    Custom features such as the ability to upload your own Avatars and change your user title.
    Access to extra forums such as the (facetiously named) "Black Belt Club*", Training Logs, and No Holds Barred forums
    Ability to store up to an additional 300 Private Messages (total: 500)
    A You@Bullshido.net webmail account
    Special discounts on future Bullshido merchandise
    And the ability to use Thread Tags.
    Not to mention the satisfaction of supporting and actively participating in a community devoted to improving the standards and fighting fraud, scams, and BS in the Martial Arts
    Only $20 per year!

    Click here to upgrade now!


    Forum Sponsorship/Advertisments


    Do you have a business or organization you want to be noticed? Well now you can sponsor a forum on Bullshido! The Bullshido forums are the #1 general Martial Arts forums on the Internet with hundreds of thousands of pages viewed by martial artists and combat sports fans around the world every month. By sponsoring a forum, you will get:
    A custom forum layout designed to feature/showcase your products or services.
    A special 150x50 block on the forum home page, with your own branding/logo. (We can provide custom graphic work if you need help with it, at no addtional charge). Example:
    Recognition as a Forum Sponsor for your user account (if you have one) with a custom title, colored username, and link to your group or business website.
    A featured link/banner image on the front page of Bullshido.
    Forum sponsorships run $500 per month, recurring, or $4000 a year ($2,000 savings!!!).
    Click here to upgrade now!



    *Continued access to "Black Belt Club" and related forums is contingent on adherence to certain standards and staff discretion. By accessing any restricted forum you consent to abide by any Nondisclosure Agreement implemented by the Bullshido staff, in effect either now or in the future. No refund
    As far as you know. A little information for you. This site cost a lot to keep going and worked at a loss for years. There's a huge differance between what we do and what you do. Now I'm going to watch the UFC because I'm interested in actual combat arts why don't you go balance your check book.
  5. Antifa is offline
    Antifa's Avatar

    Sin Dios! Sin amos!

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 12:14am

    supporting member
     Style: Starting Over... Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "It is good and not bad that the enemy struggles against us. In fact it is better if he does so vigourously, for it shows that we have drawn a clear line between himself and us" --- Mao


    Stephen,

    I've been sitting this one out for a while. But now I'm in. I've read your stuff. Let me be frank and blunt. Wait dont let me I just do it.

    First off let me say that I'm not an instructor. I'm part of the consuming public. As part of that public I have to say this: Every time you post a testimonial you piss me off more. Every time you speak I'm more disinclined to go anywhere near you.

    Why? Because when I read about marketing, I'm reading about you taking my money. or wanting to. Thankfully you dont, havent and never will. Mostly people like you need ignored. But you, you're special. Like hang a blue light over your head special.

    Being on bullshido and really spending the time looking at the crap that is out there makes you feel like the what you are doing in martial arts is paddling upstream in a river of ****. To take this analogy further, while paddling up stream one day, this turd jumped in my boat. That turd is you. And the turd said "Blah, blah...money. Blah Blah blah marketing... Blah blah blah make a million bucks."

    Let start out by saying that tution in one of your schools costs more than my rent. For the price of one year of your training I can get a life membership to both my roomates Kung-Fu school and the NRA. If I'm going to invest a a quater to a third of my yearly income I want more than moderate physical activity and sunshine blasted up my ass.

    SB kept asking you earlier what exactly somebody gets in one of your leadership classes. You havent answered. Thats because people are going to know that the answer had you given it would be "Nothing material".

    I dont care that you were hanging out with Chuck Norris the last time you were Texas. Name dropping does **** for me. I dont care Carlos Machado wound up sitting on your chest the last time you tried to grapple. I dont care if he tea-bagged you half to death in front of your old lady. The name dropping and "I'm awesome look at which other industry leaders I'm associated with because I went to a friggin BBQ in Texas" just makes you look like more of an ass.

    To people who work hard to get their little bit of money and for whom "character" is a survival trait they already possess in abudance get insulted reading your ****. There is an old southern Italian proberb that reads to the effect of "It is the opposite of clever to insult the poor".

    In short, you are no better than the car salesman up the street from me. Which is why I buy cars in the newspaper.

    I have alot of friends who dont do martial arts anymore because they have been burned by scam artists like you and your employees. What you are really doing is poisoning the well for all of us. The people here dont appreciate it and dont like you.

    Here in Austin I can get instruction better than yours in a number of places. The MMA gym that one of my close friends goes to gives him UNLIMTED classes for $130/month.

    My roomates Kung-Fu school wants $3000 for a life membership + some extras for semminars if you choose to be there. The sifu of his school is a good buy, not taking a vow of poverty and makes a decent living at it. He doesnt see his students as cash cows. My roomate has long since paid off his membership. Sifu still has ME get on his ass when class his class attendence is lagging. Why would he do this when he has made all the money he is going to off him? Because he sees the student as person and a student that he has invested in, not a commodity or resource. Fundementally he is a subject not an object

    You are different. You refer to your students a leads, sales, contracts etc. You objectify them. They are a source of money to you and thats it.

    Yes I understand we all live in a society where money is nessesscary and we have to exchange value in order to live. This includes martial arts instructors. **** even whores gotta eat. However what you are doing is something different.

    Anyway

    /rant

    You suck. Go home good bye. Or keep talking. Please. You do realize that you can google right into this site and every prospective student will know that they mean less than nothing to you outside of their wallet. Keep talking rich guy, keep talking.

    Your 2 cents for free on the interwebs,
    Antifa the Tangent Ninja
    A retard of 1
  6. Doctor X is offline
    Doctor X's Avatar

    ARGUMENTUM AD LATINUM DICTIONAIRUM

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 12:37am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Argumenta ad Rem

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    ["tl:dnr"--Ed.]

    FYI.
    Keep in mind the purpose of this web site is to make money.

    ["tl:dnr"--Ed.]
    Tu quoque is a very weak fallacy.

    In the rain.

    --J.D.
  7. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 1:01am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good lord, you use bad analogies and comparisons on two threads.

    It is really simple your comparison, it's cute but it's,....................................WRONG.


    It's really, really, really, simple.


    If I don't pay can I still post on Bullshido? Yes.

    If I don't pay can I train at Mile High? Nope.

    So, lets make sure we put it in the proper perspective.
  8. El-Wood is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 7:16am


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm pretty certain that I can take the silence and the sudden attempt at changing the direction of the discussion to Bullshido's payment plan for access as a resounding -

    "yes, I sell students on 1 thing, then tell them after several months that to actually get a 'black belt' they have to sign up for the extra special training for another $100 a month"

    I'll give it a while to see if Stephen decides to answer this directly or if he keeps trying to deflect the discussion away from himself. I tell yah - this guys slick as a ninjer!
  9. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 12:12pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Mr. Oliver, for your analogy to hold water you would have to charge your students $20 to upgrade to black belt training. Secondly the click ads are what helps us not have to charge people money to register and post here in order to defray our internet costs.
  10. StephenOliver is offline

    Registered Member

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    Evergreen, Colorado
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2007 2:13pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Agree to Disagree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless
    As far as you know. A little information for you. This site cost a lot to keep going and worked at a loss for years. There's a huge differance between what we do and what you do. Now I'm going to watch the UFC because I'm interested in actual combat arts why don't you go balance your check book.
    Of course it does.

    Running at a loss: Been there done that - most businesses have.

    No, there's really no difference.

    If the service offerings are attractive people will want to participate and to pay. If the site attracts enough eyeballs money comes in through pay per click, sponsorships, etc. Is it worth $500 per month? Maybe. Depends upon who you are and what you are trying to accomplish.

    You are not offended by all this trash talk being supported by advertising and upgrade systems but, somehow are offended by people running quality schools in a way that does not conform to your vision of proper curriculum or your idealized structure for pricing & contractual relationships.

    I think this site, the forums, the business model of this site, and the opportunity for entertainment that it provides to all be valuable. I have no problem with the model.

    Oh, and sure. My students, their parents, and other customers can google into this site anytime. I'll be embarrassed to see the interactions that people who hold themselves up to be "martial artists" have and the language and mud-slinging. That will be incongruent with what we've held a Black Belt and a Martial Artist to be. They'll be embarrassed to see your logo with the extended middle finger. They'll be entertained by all of the people who are willing to spout off behind a sheild of anomynity. And, a few may decide that they prefer UFC, MMA, BJJ, or some other type of training different than we offer, if so then it was good education for them. Others may decide to pursue schools priced at lower rates, that's their choice - and it won't be the first time - however, most when they compare come back to us.

    Certainly, I have no problem with them educating themselves of the variety of martial arts available and the range of quality within schools - and, the obvious disparity of pricing. They can decide for themselves. Most of our students are not choosing between BJJ or some such thing & TKD but, are deciding if enrolling in our school will accomplish their desired objectives.

    Clearly you view UFC and the like to be the pinnacle of martial arts training. I find it an incredibly lucrative sport - since ownershp changed - quite possibly capable of displacing boxing in dollars, viewers, popularity. I do not see it as being representative of martial arts instruction in the U.S. or around the world.

    The percentage of the population that will choose such training - really is on par with boxing and, boxing gyms haven't exactly filled after each title fight.

    However, lots of people who enjoy UFC but wouldn't consider participating - or, who really dislike UFC will become excellent martial arts students.

    The first UFC championship was the night before my Mile High Karate Classic. We co-promoted - at their request. My staff passed out flyers that said "You've seen the brutality, now learn about the art" They sold T-Shirts & other stuff at my event.

    Is UFC good for martial arts?

    Generally I believe that it is not.

    Is UFC's Financial Success (and, that of K-1) good for the fighters? Absolutely. The potential income is WAY up since the Days that that Joe Lewis, Jeff Smith, and Bill Wallace were champions. That means that better and better training methods will come into being, more athletes will consider pursuing MMA rather than other alternatives, and more and more quality will rise to the top.

    I'm not going to run off to watch UFC - I gave away the tickets I'd been given to the July event in Vegas, since I'm not particularly interested in watching the event.

    To each their own.

    All of my Martial Arts School Coaching Clients and our Mile High Karate staff have all been emailed the link to this site and to the two "threads" - and, told that if they need some "Tension Relieving, not Goal Achieving" activity that they may find it entertaining or enlightening.

    I have no problem with any of them seeing this content.

    To turn otherwise wasted time to productive, I'll probably turn these discussions into 5 or more columns for Martial Arts Professional Magazine at Rob's suggestion (goes to 20,000+ martial arts schools in U.S., Canada as well as a smattering of UK & Australia.) If you do own a school - watch for that content - beginning in May or June.

    Stephen Oliver, MBA
    8th Degree Black Belt
    Mile High Karate.
    http://www.MileHighKarate.com

    P.S. With regards to your on-going posts. I really don't have time to continue engaging in this activity.

    Sufice it to say:

    Some of you believe that MA Schools shouldn't use contracts - I disagree.

    Some of you disagree with "tiered pricing systems", I disagree. You have it here on this forum. United Airlines has it for passenger seats, Volvo has it for SUV's (ie, V-8, vs. V-6, various options), Harvard charges less per class hour for Undergraduate, than for Graduate Studies and many, many, many others. Let's agree to disagree.

    Some of you believe that the primary purpose of Martial Arts Training is Combat - I disagree.

    Some of you believe that kids shouldn't train in MA's or should not receive Black Belts - I disagree. Historically, it was believed that women shouldn't train or receive Black Belts - I disagree with that also - most of you have gotten over that.

    Some of you believe that Martial Arts School owners shouldn't need business systems, marketing systems, or sales skills - I disagree - and, the % in Bankrupsy each year validate my opinion.

    If I've missed any other point of disagreement - then I apologize. Don't read my failure to respond as anything other than my failure to return and monitor what's been said. If you feel an overwhelming desire to continue sharing your opinion with me then: StephenOliver@MileHighKarate.com

    Post to your heart's content. FYI. View my profile, it's all open. Feel free to verify my background, credentials, or achievements - nothing is hidden.
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