TBK's MMA and Self Defense Survey (Fixed)

**Matt Bernius** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:03pm

The things about Throton's essay is that it doesn't invalidate RBSD training (he frankly states that if he was trying to invalidate it he'd be disengenous because SBG offers a program). In fact he goes out of his way to state that there are good programs out there and there is a benefit to training it.

What he does suggest is that one should be careful in their focus, and that for a non LEO (or instructor), a life time persuit of RBSD can put too much focus in the wrong area.

BTW I think he's right. That's one of the reasons I suggested a bounded study of RBSD and the transitioning into something else. The value of a good RBSD program is its laser focus, but I think in the long term thats also its great weakness for an average citizen.

Originally Posted by phrost

if MMA sparring is what validates a RBSD school in your eyes, why not just train in MMA and add self defense to the mix, or as Thornton says "just add dirt"?

It's one of three things that validates a program. All need to be present:

1. Realistic, progressive resistance training
2. Well reseached information on attacker mindsets and profiles, the ins and outs of the body's reaction to conflict, and on the emotional and psycologcial aspects of confrontation.
3. Scenario training (aka flight time)

I know that the last one tends to be controversial. I'm not going to engage in an attempt to sell it. All I can say is that all of the top flight programs include it. And personally, I don't think you can legitimately train self defense without it.

Now if an MMA program (or a TMA program for that matter) were to encorporate all of that, then by all means thats a solid place to train. Personally, I haven't come across that program. That doesn't mean its out there.

Now, if an individual is so inclined and wants to train MMA side by side with an exemplar RBSD program, that person is definitely going to be better for it. But having worked with the average person walking off the street into our PDR program, most of them didn't envision themselves doing that (or being able to last in an MMA class). Frankly, a number of them had self esteem issues. For most of them, after a few months those went away and a few even made the transition into various contact martial arts programs offered locally. If we had hard sold MMA to them right off the bat they probably wouldn't have come back.

As far as having to deal with certain stereotypes... I donno, they never lasted in our hit or be hit program.

- Matt

**Cullion** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:06pm

I don't really think about self-defence much. I'm a heavily built male living in a quiet country town. The closest I get to thinking about self-defence is on the rare occasions I'm on my own in a large unfamilliar city at night.. and depending on the distance I take a cab or just stick to well-lit areas with a lot of people around. It's really pretty simple.

I think obsessing about 'real scenarios' is more prevalent amongst the passive-aggressive types you get at TMA schools which have no regular sparring/randoori or the out-and-out RBSD survivalist cults I see in american magazines.

I am more likely to get punched in the face attending class than I ever will be walking aroung my home town.

I do martial arts because everyday life isn't exciting enough, not because I'm scared that I need intensive training to survive a trip to work or the stores.

**Matt Bernius** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:17pm

At least stateside, chances are (excepting certain locations and demographics) that you'll be attacked by someone you know. That's what happened to me. But RBSD programs usually start with the random encounter (something that is easier for people to process) and move on to personal encounters.

Please note that I don't think RBSD training is for everyone. I don't think MMA training is. Nor do I think TMA training is. Etc. I do think that is a valuable area to be aware of. I do think most people are better for having some form of honest training.

A lot of people, myself included, start down an RBSD path (or even a Martial Arts) to help deal with various confrontation issues (in my case getting into a fight completely reset my view on self defense). What any good program should do (in my opinion) is help people confront some of those those issues (note this next part) as a byproduct of honest training (again I note that this is not the focus of Martial arts). Anecdotally, I saw a large increase in confidence and method of carrying themselves amoung students of the RBSD program. This is the good aspect of it that Thorton acknowledges. Now the trick is to not get those people to turn the corner into living in the "red zone" all the time and treating everyone they encounter as a threat. That isn't a healthy way of living.

Further, I don't think most people get involved in martial arts for self defense. Some do. But take a look at the varied responses in the unscientific survey we ran here. It's all over the board. There was statistically no difference between the number of people in the arts for "sports comp," "self defense," and "fun" (if you tally the non competing sport fighters with the competing ones, then that does take the lead... not suprising from the theme of this site).

- Matt

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:18pm

Bernius, the important thing is that most RBSD schools suck, and...

Exception =/= Rule

**Matt Bernius** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:28pm

Originally Posted by I Choke You

Bernius, the important thing is that most RBSD schools suck, and...

Exception =/= Rule

Again, I say proof please. I can pull the instructor list off of Blauer and SBG's site (and a few others) and immediately have a number of schools that I would have no problem sending people to. I'd also send folks to some Red Man training schools.

For as much as we talk about how terrible most RBSD programs are, I don't see a ton of evidence for it. I do see a number of very vocal schools that are sub par. I do see a number of very vocal advocate (who lack in training) who I don't agree with nor would train with. But I don't see a ton of Attack Proof trainers out there.

So please, prove me wrong. Lets get a list of all of the RBSD schools out there and evaluate thier programs. Or are we simply saying that any place that offers self defense = RBSD?

- Matt

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:36pm

I know there are good RBSD schools. But it's very important to make sure THAT is what you're going to. To recognize whether it's good or not, some previous MMA training is VERY useful.

**Matt Bernius** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:39pm

Originally Posted by I Choke You

I know there are good RBSD schools. But it's very important to make sure THAT is what you're going to. To recognize whether it's good or not, some previous MMA training is VERY useful.

Of course. And I agree. And at the same time in any case of program selection, prior knowledge is going to help. Or getting some assistance from someone in the know.

That includes choosing a good MMA school from a bad one (and I think the concesus here is that those exist too).

God, my history in the martial arts revolves around going to bad programs and then (thanks to cross training and working with other people) finding better ones and then realizing how bad the initial programs were.

- Matt

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:42pm

I'm sorry, but MMA is less likely to suck than RBSD. It can happen, but it's like playing Russian roulette with 1 bullet in the chambers instead of 5.

**Matt Bernius** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 7:50pm

I tend to agree (especially if you add the SD programs offered at many strip mall schools).

Though sometimes suckage is measured in degrees. I don't think there is an epidemic of super sucky MMA programs out there (yet). But, at least around me, there are a number of mediocre ones (or at least they don't seem to measure up to the level that I envision based on conversations on this and other boards).

- Matt

**Phrost** · Posted On: 2/22/2006 8:04pm

Originally Posted by Matt Bernius

The things about Throton's essay is that it doesn't invalidate RBSD training (he frankly states that if he was trying to invalidate it he'd be disengenous because SBG offers a program). In fact he goes out of his way to state that there are good programs out there and there is a benefit to training it.

What he does suggest is that one should be careful in their focus, and that for a non LEO (or instructor), a life time persuit of RBSD can put too much focus in the wrong area.

BTW I think he's right. That's one of the reasons I suggested a bounded study of RBSD and the transitioning into something else. The value of a good RBSD program is its laser focus, but I think in the long term thats also its great weakness for an average citizen.

It's one of three things that validates a program. All need to be present:

1. Realistic, progressive resistance training
2. Well reseached information on attacker mindsets and profiles, the ins and outs of the body's reaction to conflict, and on the emotional and psycologcial aspects of confrontation.
3. Scenario training (aka flight time)

Take away the sparring and the rest of it is just theoretical masturbation ala The Martialist. It is the only component that validates the process.

I know that the last one tends to be controversial. I'm not going to engage in an attempt to sell it. All I can say is that all of the top flight programs include it. And personally, I don't think you can legitimately train self defense without it.

Hey, some police departments still teach their officers Aikido. That's not a testament to Aikido's effectiveness as much as it is a testament to the ignorance of the instructors to better options.

Now, if an individual is so inclined and wants to train MMA side by side with an exemplar RBSD program, that person is definitely going to be better for it. But having worked with the average person walking off the street into our PDR program, most of them didn't envision themselves doing that (or being able to last in an MMA class). Frankly, a number of them had self esteem issues. For most of them, after a few months those went away and a few even made the transition into various contact martial arts programs offered locally. If we had hard sold MMA to them right off the bat they probably wouldn't have come back.

That makes sense.

As far as having to deal with certain stereotypes... I donno, they never lasted in our hit or be hit program.

- Matt

Which would be something to add to the marketing package.

Do you have a link to a site where your program is featured?