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  1. kikkoman is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 12:45pm


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The evolutionary lineage of jujutsu

    I'm trying to get a list of all the major historical people who were involved in the evolution of japanese jujutsu. I dont' know a whole lot about it, but this is what I've gathered from online material.

    Old school japanese jujutsu
    \/
    Jigoro Kano -- turning jujutsu into a sport that can be practiced more intensely, but safer.
    \/
    Maeda -- incorporating a challenge fighting mentality to test the style
    \/
    Gracie Family -- evolving the ground game, and carrying on fights in competitions. Spawning the MMA industry to a global scale.
    \/
    Eddie Bravo -- Thinking outside the box and developing new techniques and changing the ground game.

    Is this list accurate? Are there any other people of historical signifigance that I left out?
  2. Beneath Contempt is offline

    Cowardly Henchman

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 12:55pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I somehow don't think that Eddie Bravo deserves to be the heir apparent to BJJ.

    Really I think it runs something like this:


    Old School JJ : Dozens of kata-based military fighting schools

    V
    V

    Kodokan pwns TJJ : Concept of randori, live training. JJ (Judo)becomes a grappling art

    V
    V

    The Judo Borg assimilates Fusen JJ school. Groundfighting added to Judo curriculum in a meaningful way

    V
    V

    Maeda teaches the Gracies what he knows. At this stage, there is little evidence to support the idea that this was not what we simply term "old judo" (not old JJ).

    V
    V

    Judo goes in another direction and wins a lot of medals whilst national anthems play.

    V
    V

    Rolls develops guard game and hugely influences technical and positional side of BJJ.

    V
    V

    Younger BJJ students develop strategies and positional strategies that are irrelevant to judo and start to make modern BJJ entirely distinct from original BJJ or indeed Judo.

    V
    V

    Rorion does America.

    V
    V

    Royce pwns a lot of people in early UFC.

    V
    V

    Everyone starts doing BJJ.

    V
    V

    Next generation of BJJ young turks develop newer and newer styles. Telles, Leo Viera etc.

    V
    V

    Eddie Bravo grows a beard.
    Last edited by Beneath Contempt; 2/20/2006 1:16pm at .
  3. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 12:58pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Eddie is a fun offshoot, but as for long term evolutionary changes to jiujitsu, you'd have to put people like Carlos, Helio, Carlson, Rolls, Carlinhos, etc. before him.
  4. kikkoman is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 1:07pm


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Eddie is a fun offshoot, but as for long term evolutionary changes to jiujitsu, you'd have to put people like Carlos, Helio, Carlson, Rolls, Carlinhos, etc. before him.
    I used "Gracie family" to describe Helio, Rolls, and all of them at the same time (there are too many to name individually).

    I listed Eddy Bravo as the most current evolution. Not neccisarily as the most dramatic evolution. But still the most current evolution that I am aware of.
  5. Captain Spaulding is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 1:08pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From various things read, I've gotten the impression that challenge matches were done to at least some extent before Maeda; that the groundwork in Judo came as a result of a Jujutsu school that specialized in groundwork challenging and doing well against the Kodokan.
  6. kikkoman is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 1:38pm


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beneath Contempt
    Maeda teaches the Gracies what he knows. At this stage, there is little evidence to support the idea that this was not what we simply term "old judo" (not old JJ).
    It's about the evolutionary lineage. The lineage I gave included Kano.

    So you could use the same argument to say Judo isn't really judo and is actually just Jujutsu. Or you could say that BJJ is not really BJJ and just Judo. The names of the styles aren't important, just the evolutionary pathway.

    I think Eddie Bravo is just as important as say Jigoro Kano.
  7. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 1:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kikkoman
    I think Eddie Bravo is just as important as say Jigoro Kano.
    I would have laughed if I wasn't crying.
  8. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 2:08pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why don't you stick to TKD history for now.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 2:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd expand the evolutionary lineage of JJ up to Kano as follows:

    Hashinosuke Fukuda (Tenjin Shinyo-ryu) + Tsunetoshi Iikubo (Kito Ryu) + Western Wrestling
    V
    Jigoro Kano (Judo)
    V
    Kano + Mataemon Tanabe (Fusen Ryu) ( previously noted as the Judo Borg assimilating Fusen Ryu :P )
    V
    expansion of Kodokan Judo newaza
    V
    Kosen Judo (Judo with rules enphasizing/not restricting newaza)
    V
    Mitsuyo Maeda
    ( .... you know the rest... :zicon_ram )

    Also, this genealogy seems to end in BJJ, which is fine on itself. But should it mention other arts that are offshots of JJ (or for which JJ made a substantial contribution) such as Sambo, and/or the different modern JJ schools (American JJ, Jackson's Gaidojutsu)????
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2006 4:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Puroresu is also (partially) a descendant of JJJ.

    For my feelings on this thread, see this poll:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31363
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