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  1. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 2:55pm

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     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Matt,

    have you read Dakin Burdick's thesis, "The American Way of Fighting"? The first four chapters might be of interest re. Muscular Christianity, judo, etc.
    Going to pull it down today.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    As an aside, I have a theory that some of the original field testing of Kodokan Judo/Jiudo/Kano-ryu Jiujitsu/etc. as a competitive sport actually happened in England, via the experience of Yukio Tani and Sadekazu Uyenishi as music-hall wrestlers. They had been sent to London to teach at E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu Club under the auspices of the Kodokan, and their books follow the Kodokan's reformist agenda of Jiudo as a "manly sport" suitable for inclusion in physical education curricula. This may have one of the events that led to their splitting with Barton-Wright, as he was more interested in street self defense applications than in sport; either way, their success in competition paved the way for the widespread popularity of sport judo in Europe during the 20th century.
    I totally agree. I don't currently know enough about that period, but based on some material that I read in JAMA and mapping it onto my understanding of the history of Muscular Christianty (plus Gymnasitics and other physical culture movements) it makes for a solid story.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    You should also talk to EJMAS editor Joe Svinth re. the influence of the Muscular Christian philosophy on Kano's pedagogy.
    Will do. I've been promising a prof an article on this for quite a while and need to get my ass in gear on it.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  2. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:01pm

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     Style: Kung Fu

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    BTW:

    ----------

    have you read Dakin Burdick's thesis, "The American Way of Fighting"? The first four chapters might be of interest re. Muscular Christianity, judo, etc.

    ------------

    This didn't come up on a google scholar seach. Any chance you know where he did his graduate work?

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:02pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubberduck
    DdlR, do you know any good source in english about SavateŽs history prior to WWI? IŽm doing a bit of research on Savate in Czarist Russia and Finland.

    Sorry to hijack thread.
    Unfortunately, although there's been a fair bit of historical research on savate, it's almost all in French. I may be able to answer some questions, though - maybe you could start another thread for this subject?
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:03pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I did a concentration on Asian martial philosophy for my Philo degree, and continue to do research on KMA history (way too much Bullshido...makes finding the good stuff fun and challenging). In fact, I found Bullshido.com through doing research and came across Miguksaram's posts. Turns out we know people in common, etc...

    I lucked out an my advisor at UMBC studied old school Kang Duk Won Kwonbup/TKD directly under it's old kwanjang back in the day after the Vietnam War, and had much first hand material (in Korean). This, coupled with learning the Korean language, and my own master who is old school Moodukkwan, has opened up a lot of research material and opportunities for me that a lot of KMA researchers just don't have.
    Last edited by Jiggle Butt; 3/01/2006 3:06pm at .
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:05pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Bernius
    BTW:

    ----------

    have you read Dakin Burdick's thesis, "The American Way of Fighting"? The first four chapters might be of interest re. Muscular Christianity, judo, etc.

    ------------

    This didn't come up on a google scholar seach. Any chance you know where he did his graduate work?

    - Matt
    UMI - but I think the PDF is actually available online somewhere. I'll PM you ...
  6. Antisocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:09pm


     Style: FiFiFu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    I did a concentration on Asian martial philosophy for my Philo degree, and continue to do research on KMA history (way too much Bullshido...makes finding the good stuff fun and challenging). In fact, I found Bullshido.com through doing research and came across Miguksaram's posts. Turns out we know people in common, etc...

    I lucked out an my advisor at UMBC studied old school Kang Duk Won Kwonbup/TKD directly under it's old kwanjang back in the day after the Vietnam War, and had much first hand material (in Korean). This, coupled with learning the Korean language, and my own master who is old school Moodukkwan, has opened up a lot of research material and opportunities for me that a lot of KMA researchers just don't have.
    Is there an actual, documentable KMA today with clear connections in techniques to pre-Occupation Korea? I've been curious about the claim made by Taekyon, that there is a clear line of transmission from Choson to today.
  7. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:14pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocrates
    Is there an actual, documentable KMA today with clear connections in techniques to pre-Occupation Korea? I've been curious about the claim made by Taekyon, that there is a clear line of transmission from Choson to today.
    Part of this ties back to the assumption that a martial art needs to be codafied enough for a direct and recordable transmission line.

    KMA's are always going to be contentious. Taekyon, to my knowledge, has one of the closest things to a "direct" line. My understanding is that Taekyon is also a bit more rough and tumble (read as less codaifed) than what we typically think as a martial art. So because of that it may not necessarily fit our modern model of a martial art.

    Beyond that there are lots of claims about unbroken lines and elder monk teachers. To my knowledge none of them can be verified. Now, eventually Miguksaram will get to this and then set us all straight.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  8. Rubberduck is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:15pm


     Style: Savate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Unfortunately, although there's been a fair bit of historical research on savate, it's almost all in French. I may be able to answer some questions, though - maybe you could start another thread for this subject?
    OK, no rush though. IŽll need to get in touch with one guy here, who is real gold mine of info in boxing. He said that savate was competing in popularity with boxing here prior to WWI. HeŽs old though, so it must be done soon before he passes away.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 6:19pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocrates
    Is there an actual, documentable KMA today with clear connections in techniques to pre-Occupation Korea? I've been curious about the claim made by Taekyon, that there is a clear line of transmission from Choson to today.
    Taegyun and Ssireum are two combat sports that pre-date the Occupation. There is an excellent article in JAMA about Taegyun's development before and during the Occupation.

    It is important to understand that both arts are combat sports...민예/minyae/folk art, more akin to Okinawan villagers practicing tode and tegumi than Japanese samurai practicing jujutsu. (Dave Lowry wrote an excellent article on karate as a folk practice rather than an actual martial art). Hoplogically, martial art is defined for use in warfare.

    The Mooyaedobotongji delineates Chosun dynasty battlefield arts. It is an outline, rather than a training manual. Any attempt at practicing its contents are reconstruction, rather than actual transmission. There are groups doing this in Korea, much like ARMA does with Western MA manuals. Some of them are good, others are laughable.

    Much of the material in the Mooyaedobotongji is CMA, though it does present a few Korean weapons, as well as four ryu of Japanese kenjutsu. There is also one sword form attributed to the Hwarang. However, the Mooyaedobotongji was written centuries after the Shilla Dynasty, so all you can say with certainty is that the form is attributed to the Hwarang.

    The empty hand section of the manual is Chinese chuan fa, the Kijikwon. I am currently involved in a project involving several KMA researchers tracing this form. It's origins lie in a manual written by a Chinese general, and it bears similarities to Taizhu Long Fist and Chen Taiji.

    As far as pre-Occupation arts go, there has always been a strong CMA presense in the Korean arts. The Occupation and the rise to dominance of Taekwondo and Hapkido overshadowed these to a large degree, and so little scholarship has been paid attention to them until now. One example are the various schools of Shippalgi, or the 18 Techniques, one branch of which I study.
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 6:21pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    M.C. Busman pops in now and then. And Miguk's still around. He's done a ton of good work here.

    I'm not sure who's done academic-specific work, but I would love for us to feature anything you guys came up with.
    What kind of material are you looking for? I have old papers, etc, but I don't know how many of them fit the vibe of the site. My goal is to eventually publish an un-Bullshido history of the Korean karate arts. I have a lot of material on this I could throw together.
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