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  1. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 10:41pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Copyright is enforced in the Federal Court system. Hargrave's dad was, or is, a judge in the Oklahoma state court system.

    Get a lawyer who is familiar with "cyber squatting" claims and hire them to protect your rights.
  2. thunder_duck is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2012 9:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I finally decided to stop lurking and make a comment.

    Many many years ago, I spent about two years going to Carter's JKD school at his home. I was a martial arts noob and didn't know what made a good school and what was a belt mill.

    He and everyone at the school were incredibly friendly. I enjoyed interacting with everyone. The training was a little odd. Lots of form and footwork. Lots of punching pads. No sparing. In the two years I was there, we had actual contact sparring once. A few of the other students and I bought gear and had our own sparring sessions outside of class.

    Even at the time, I thought the number of belts and awards seemed a little incredible. It sounds like it has only increased since then. I found the "professor" title to be a little grating. When I asked him about it, he said that the amount of time he had devoted to the martial arts was on par with a college professor and that he deserved the same level of respect. He even had a framed diploma of "eastern philosophy" or something, I don't remember the exact wording of it, but like the title, he felt it was deserved because of the time spent.

    I never could get a straight answer on why he didn't teach the style that he had supposedly created. I never saw anything at the school that related to his style, apart from the claim of having created it. Just JKD and kempo.

    I loved the idea of JKD, but as I did my research and saw the different schisms, I came to the conclusions that no one involved was really on the up and up. It just made more sense to move to a different style that didn't have all the baggage.

    This has been an interesting thread. I have found some of his Carter's online bullying techniques to be particularly repellent. Looking back, I wish I'd picked a different school, but

    Anyway, this is getting long. I'll be happy to answer any questions, but I would like retain some anonymity. I don't need any online stalking or legal threats. I think I still have my rank certificates boxed away somewhere, if anyone needs proof.
  3. KendalGuro is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2012 10:30am


     Style: Arnis de Mano

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thunder_duck View Post
    When I asked him about it, he said that the amount of time he had devoted to the martial arts was on par with a college professor and that he deserved the same level of respect. He even had a framed diploma of "eastern philosophy" or something, I don't remember the exact wording of it, but like the title, he felt it was deserved because of the time spent. .
    Not sure how much time your average professor puts into his study but Cartre has come clean on how much actual training he has....from his website. at kempokatate.com
    <<<
    After Dill came to the Oklahoma Karate Academy to meet all the instructors, he invited Carter Hargrave to be trained as one of his instructors to open a branch in Oklahoma. Hargrave agreed and began his two and one half year journey through Kempo Karate, Jeet Kune Do, Kick Boxing, Arnis, Escrima, and various forms of Ju Jitsu and Kung Fu.
    >>>>
    thats right kids in 2.5 years he "mastered" at least seven arts, even though he had never even heard of arnis or escrima until 1995. Funny he left out his mail order TKD Certificate.
    Last edited by KendalGuro; 11/15/2012 10:34am at .
  4. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2012 9:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thunder_duck,

    Thanks for posting and welcome. You need not worry about the stalkers (-;

    Quote Originally Posted by thunder_duck View Post
    Even at the time, I thought the number of belts and awards seemed a little incredible. It sounds like it has only increased since then. I found the "professor" title to be a little grating. When I asked him about it, he said that the amount of time he had devoted to the martial arts was on par with a college professor and that he deserved the same level of respect. He even had a framed diploma of "eastern philosophy" or something, I don't remember the exact wording of it, but like the title, he felt it was deserved because of the time spent.
    First I see of the "professor" title is his 1995 certificate for 7th Dan / Professor by E.A.Moore (World Martial Arts Hall of Fame).





    I never could get a straight answer on why he didn't teach the style that he had supposedly created. I never saw anything at the school that related to his style, apart from the claim of having created it. Just JKD and kempo.
    LOL, maybe because he has no style and is too arrogant to train beyond his actual 1st Dan experience. I do have a couple of questions.

    (1) You only sparred once in the time there during class. Did you ever see Hargrave himself spar anyone?

    (2) Your personal thoughts of Hargrave as an instructor. His movement in his videos looks atrocious.

    (3) His feelings towards those students who choose to move on, i.e., was he butthurt?


    Lastly, from

    http://kempo.org/

    One fateful day a man approached the instructors at his school and invited them to learn his style of Karate. No one but Carter expressed an interest. That man was a teacher from the Bruce Lee School in California, and for two years after this meeting Carter studied under this instructor, learning weaponry, Bruce Lees unique styles of martial arts, Ju Jitsu, Escrima and Kenpo. Carter took the techniques and combined them into a single, simple style that he called American Combat Kenpo. His style allowed his students to defend themselves within six months of beginning his unique training.
  5. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2012 9:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KendalGuro View Post
    Funny he left out his mail order TKD Certificate.
    That claim is the one I haven't been able to pin down. Dill tells me Hargrave was a colored belt in TKD. Hargrave never gives any information, only that he was a TKD blackbelt before Dill.

    Anyone?
  6. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2012 11:30am

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hello Sam

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sam Carter Hargrave TMHS.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	26.7 KB 
ID:	14069

    Looking through, there seem to be no photos of the young professor. Possibly not very popular?

    A bit confusing as Oklahoma has him as Hargrave, Carter Russell.
    Last edited by hungryjoe; 11/24/2012 12:07pm at .
  7. thunder_duck is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2012 2:38am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry all. I posted, offering to answer questions, and then forgot to check back and see if there were any.

    (1) You only sparred once in the time there during class. Did you ever see Hargrave himself spar anyone?

    I sparred with him. He was definitely faster than me. There was no one there at the time that weren't also noobs though, so I never got to see him spar with anyone that knew what they were doing. I never saw him go full-out.

    (2) Your personal thoughts of Hargrave as an instructor. His movement in his videos looks atrocious.

    He's a nice guy. Very personable. Seems to love teaching. But I had a lot of questions, and I feel like a bunch of them got ducked. One example - we would do punch and block drills for hours, and we would also kick bags. When I asked about the defensives against kicking, or at least kick and block/avoid/whatever drills, it was brushed off as if that wasn't important. So I could pak-sao if someone throws a punch, but I just take it if I get kicked?

    He did play up the whole mythology of jkd being too dangerous for competition, and lots of stories about current and former students successfully defending themselves, which is great, but anecdotal.

    His explanation and demonstration of Lee's "one inch punch" seemed lame and not at all what Lee was doing. I was probably just not ready for those secrets yet.

    (3) His feelings towards those students who choose to move on, i.e., was he butthurt?

    Not that I ever saw. I know the Kempo classes had more turn-over and more drama, but I try to avoid that stuff.

    After JKD, I did choy li fut and wing chun for a while, before life interrupted. One of these days I'll get back into it. Probably wing chun, or maybe krav maga. Not JKD. Which is a little sad, I think.
  8. thunder_duck is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2012 3:05am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just as an aside -- I had to defend myself in earnest once since I trained in martial arts. It was an ugly, ungraceful event that sounded nothing like stories of students effortlessly putting their attackers on the ground. I was left bruised and bloodied. But I held my own and was able to walk away from it. I credit training, even with Hargrave. Even if you do nothing but punch and kick drills then at the very least, if the time comes, you'll punch and kick harder.
  9. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2012 7:25pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thunder_duck,

    Thanks for the post and questions answered.
  10. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2012 7:38pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Oklahoma Historians Look Back at Tulsa Martial Arts History

    As an aside and posted here for future reference. From http://www.sbwire.com/press-releases...ory-184275.htm , another obvious bit of self promotion.

    Yes, he still needs a proof reader.

    Las Vegas, NV -- (SBWIRE) -- 12/02/2012 -- Tulsa is an historic city for martial arts with its pioneers of Lou Angel, Roger Green, D.W. Kang, Apollo Cook, and Carter Hargrave, who have taught in the city of Tulsa for decades. Each teacher brought an art to the city that did not exist before.

    There is a great history of martial arts in Tulsa Oklahoma. Being in the middle of the United States and far from any port city where the asian migration of culture would not be expected to flourish or even be present, Tulsa has becomea virtual mecca of martial arts.

    The first teachers of martial arts came to Tulsa in the 1960’s teaching Goju Ryu Karate, and Tracy Kenpo. Thenlater in the seventies Tae Kwon Do appeared.

    After a few years of the three arts being taught in Tulsa, there became only one. Tae Kwon Do with its marketingthroughout the United States took over the martial arts industry with its high flashy kicks and tournament play.

    In the nineties is when it got interesting again. Tulsa got its first taste of actual Bruce Lee martial arts in the form of Jeet Kune Do. Tae Kwon Do sport karate was joined by anold Japanese art known as Kempo Karate or Kenpo.

    Kung Fu also began to appear for the first time along with the gentle form of Tai Chi.

    That is the style history of martial arts, karate, and kung fuin Tulsa, but who were the players.

    In the beginning of Tulsa Martial Arts there were the Tracy brothers teaching their art to Roger Greene who taught for many years in the art of Traci Kenpo. He no longer teaches the general public preferring to teach lawenforcement and small groups.

    For Goju Ryu it was Lou Angel who had a school in Tulsa for many years, and had at least three famous students, two of which became Grandmasters, and one a movie star. Angel is now located in Missouri and is the director of the National College of Martial Arts. He is a Grandmaster and founder of Tente Goju Karate. The most famous student of Angel is Jeff Speakman who starred in theaction film Perfect Weapon, a classic in the martial arts film world. Speakman went on to be trained by Ed Parker, Elvis’s karate teacher.

    Dong Wong Kang or D.W. Kang as he is known broughtthe art of Tae Kwon Do to Tulsa. He was a fixture in TKD and his local school tournaments for decades at 61st and sheridan. He taught many students and several olympiansin the art. He owns a golf course and has retired from teaching. He taught for over 25 years. He has taughtthousands of students.

    His sons operate separate schools, one in Tulsa, and the other in Broken Arrow. One of Kangs students opened his own school, and started competing in Kick Boxingtournaments as Dale “Apollo” Cook. Cook and his brother operate schools in Tulsa and Broken Arrow as well. They began teaching Tae Kwon Do and branched out into other arts with the addition of part time teachers. Cook no longerteaches. He taught for over 25 years. He has trainedthousands of students.

    For the art of Bruce Lee, Jeet Kune Do (meaning way ofthe intercepting fist), we have Carter Hargrave. Hargravewas a student of Lou Angel as Well as Gary Dill, who was a Bruce Lee student, who trained and certified Hargraveas Instructor, and was instrumental in having Hargraveinducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame as Jeet Kune Do Master. Hargrave is an author and head of twointernational self defense organizations. He has taught for over 21 years.

    Carter Hargrave is one of two Grandmasters in Tulsa along with Dong Wong Kang. Hargrave still teaches law enforcement, governmental, and small private classes athis Tulsa Martial Arts School. He has taught thousands of students.

    As you can see these pioneers in Tulsa Martial Arts come from a varied background from all over the United States, offering their unique training and earning their rightful place in Tulsa Karate History.

    Today there are many more martial arts and even moreschools to choose from. How will the new breed of teachers leave their mark on Tulsa Martial Arts History, or will they be overshadowed by the Masters andGrandmasters who made martial arts in Tulsa what they are.

    About Tulsa Martial Arts
    Tulsa Martial Arts website offers ratings and advise on martial arts, kung fu, mma, karate, kenpo, arnis, and jujitsu for students interested in Tulsa Martial Arts Schools.

    Tulsa Martial Arts
    info@tulsamartialarts.com
    http://www.tulsamartialarts.com
    I think Carter is lying about having dan ranking in TKD. He's never mentioned his instructor anywhere that I can find. Dill told me he was a gup belt when he came to him.

    He's always listed Lou Angel as his first instructor. Dill as his JKD/Kempo instructor. All of the bs pay to play "certificates of rank", yet nothing on the TKD end.

    Mods, I'd like to put up a new thread in the KMA section asking for help on this one. Do you foresee any objections?

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