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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 8:09pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oNAGAo View Post
    CC, you seem to have come into those classes with the intention of proving what was being said on this thread. Coming in with an agenda like that renders anything you say about it automatically suspect. Claim all that you want that you approached it without bias, but it's pretty clear to me, as one of the students there, that you had your mind made up from day one.

    Putting it simply, your descriptions of the classes and members are generally exaggerated to fit your aforementioned agenda. You've lost a great deal of my respect.

    ---

    As one of Hargrave's JKD students for a little over a year now, I can tell you that he absolutely knows what he's teaching. This is not a case of some con-artist pretending to teach broose lee fiteeng. As one would expect from someone claiming to possess his credentials, his form is consistently precise in his demonstrations. Just as well, he is able and willing to address any and all questions, demonstrate applicable techniques, and do so on the spot perfectly. I'm not speaking in exaggeration. I'm skeptical by nature, but I've been able to assuage the doubt that this sort of thread has generated by attending the classes in person for the time that I have. I'm currently Level 5 of 12 in Hargrave's system. So by no means am I an expert. I have a background in Tae Kwon Do, having a black belt from a very long time ago. However, I am thoroughly impressed by Hargrave's system, his teaching method, his actual instruction, and his knowledge. If I didn't think I would actually be learning real Jeet Kune Do from an instructor who knew what he was doing in his classes, I would quit. I really would. However, I haven't, and I firmly believe that says more about his instruction than it does my dedication.

    There is a lot of bad blood within the JKD community. People fight over what is real JKD, what isn't, and whether or not a particular instructor is as good as he professes to be. I think if people would focus on the substance of the technique being taught rather than running around conducting witch hunts like what this is turning into, we would all be a lot better off.
    Can we get a No-Prize for any "student" that uses "witch hunt" or "a year" in defense of their instructor?

    I won't mention that in "little over a year," you are almost half way through is his 12 level system. I also won't mention the use of "real jkd" against you teacher's system.

    Interesting response.
  2. oNAGAo is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 8:38pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Can we get a No-Prize for any "student" that uses "witch hunt" or "a year" in defense of their instructor?

    I won't mention that in "little over a year," you are almost half way through is his 12 level system. I also won't mention the use of "real jkd" against you teacher's system.

    Interesting response.
    Ad hominem much?
  3. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 8:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by oNAGAo View Post
    Ad hominem much?
    He criticized your arguments and made no statements about you as a person. That's not ad hominem.
  4. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 10:22pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by oNAGAo View Post
    Personal experience does not equate to an agenda. The agenda exists before the acquisition of experience as one of the reasons for joining.
    Smoke and mirrors.

    Promotion by Dill is verified. Shodan.

    Pay to play certificates of high rank are also verified. Some of these from known and verified frauds, all promoting to high ranks.

    The "Professor" was invited here by myself via email. Response was a threat of prosecution for "cyber stalking" and later "defamation of character".

    For one year you've met, once a week and are already promoted to 5th of 12 ranks. Thats approximately 52 classes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    This is not a witch hunt. It's an inquiry about some fantastic claims of promotion.

    Anyone can claim Soke, Grand Master, etc. There are no rules or governing bodies in the US to oversee the martial arts promotional standards. The Professor, Soke, Grand Master, Head PooPah titles are, in my own opinion, what they are. Carter's re-invention of himself after leaving Dill with the very beginning rank of beginning black belt/sash whatever.

    A rank that, in most martial arts would not allow him to promote anyone to a significant level.

    It is the training after Dill that is questioned.

    Think of this as a public service, consumer protection if you will. Witch hunts resulted in false accusation, torture and death. No person here is holding Carter's feet to the fire.

    A few answers on training is all that has been requested. A great many of his claims have also been posted, taken for the most part from his many websites.

    The infighting among JKD is well known. So are the various claims by so many to teach "Bruce Lee's" JKD. Dill was suspect. Carter is suspect of suspect for giving the impression of expert without providing verified training after 1992 if I remember correctly.

    I think those reading this thread know wherein lies the true "agenda".

    Just wondering if you're the Professor himself.
  5. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 10:47pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also

    It is my understanding that Carter comes from an honorable family, well connected in Oklahoma politics and law circles.

    I also understand how Carter's congressional recognition for best martial arts school came about. Steve Largent probably never took a class with Carter. His award is fact and undisputed. No one is questioning that he has the piece of paper.

    Being bullied into shutting up for fear of costs incurred for a legal battle is BS. There is nothing honourable about trying to resolve a dispute in this manner. Honourable would be shedding some light with honest answers. Cowardly is lurking behind the backs of students and lawyers.

    I would be the first to apologize if found wrong on any opinions expressed regarding Carter Hargrave. Sorry. Won't call him professor.
  6. oNAGAo is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 10:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Smoke and mirrors.

    ...

    Just wondering if you're the Professor himself.
    I am certainly not Professor Hargrave. I obviously have no real way of proving that, so you'll just have to believe me.

    As far as achieving level 5 so quickly - which has apparently been a sticking point in what I said - it's not due to the ease of the class. In fact, I've jumped 3 people who have been there since I began through working my ass off for a while. That and JKD just makes a lot of natural sense to me, to be honest. The cirriculum of learning within Hargrave's system is cumulative and increases in difficulty somewhat exponentially; I don't view my level 5 as particularly noteworthy in that regard.

    Please don't misunderstand me. I understand the concern you have in a lot of ways. I really do. My calling this a witch hunt refers to the zealous nature with which it is being pursued. There are a lot of very legitimate concerns that have been raised. I was really disconcerted with what I was reading, and I imagine that I'll find out more in the future. However, the fact remains that Professor Hargrave truly does know this stuff like you would expect an expert of the craft to. That was the point in bringing up my personal experience. That has been the force keeping me from really putting much weight in this vendetta that seems to be held. I'm not calling it BS. I'm just saying that I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for conclusive evidence of fraud and deceit to surface because I'm very confident and comfortable in what I'm learning from the guy.

    Like I said before. If I didn't feel as though I was getting quality teaching in JKD from this, I would stop wasting my money and quit in a heartbeat. In fact, had I read this thread before beginning, I likely never would have. However, I can safely say that joining was not a mistake, and that the quality of training that Hargrave provides, combined with his knowledge and mastery of the techniques he trains, has removed most doubt and concern raised by this thread that I would otherwise still retain.

    I'll tell you what. My personal goal is to work my ass off and get to level 12 before I get deployed sometime next year. When I do, I'll bring all of this up and ask him about it. I imagine if there's any truth to all of this, he'll tell me then. If/when that happens, I'll tell you what he says.
    Last edited by oNAGAo; 3/15/2010 10:55pm at .
  7. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 11:00pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    oNAGAo,

    If you think you're getting fair value and training, then good for you. It's your path and we all choose our own. No sarcasm intended.

    Major props to you for your service and good luck when deployed.

    Joe
  8. oNAGAo is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 11:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    oNAGAo,

    If you think you're getting fair value and training, then good for you. It's your path and we all choose our own. No sarcasm intended.

    Major props to you for your service and good luck when deployed.

    Joe
    Thanks, Joe. I truly hope you find a resolution to this whole thing.

    Matt
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/16/2010 2:44am

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    Quote Originally Posted by oNAGAo View Post
    Ad hominem much?
    You realize you characterizing this thread as a "witch Hunt," as a basis of your argument, is an ad hominem right? You just insulted the work people have done in this thread.


    You have been at the school for a year. This thread was started in 2006.

    I met anger with sarcasm.
  10. CorvusCorvanes is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2010 3:06pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CC, you seem to have come into those classes with the intention of proving what was being said on this thread. Coming in with an agenda like that renders anything you say about it automatically suspect. Claim all that you want that you approached it without bias, but it's pretty clear to me, as one of the students there, that you had your mind made up from day one.
    Honestly I expected it to be better than it was. I can't tell you how hard it was for me to not stand up and leave the second night I was there. Had the instruction been the quality that I seek, then you would still see me in there. I am still trying to decide where i want to train at in the Tulsa are too. Had I been wrong, then I would of told Joe he was a dummy head and also turned in a corresponding review.

    Putting it simply, your descriptions of the classes and members are generally exaggerated to fit your aforementioned agenda. You've lost a great deal of my respect.
    Even if they're exaggerated (which I would tend to say they're not emphasized enough). That doesn't change the fact that someone is going to get severely injured from trusting this guy.

    As one of Hargrave's JKD students for a little over a year now, I can tell you that he absolutely knows what he's teaching. This is not a case of some con-artist pretending to teach broose lee fiteeng. As one would expect from someone claiming to possess his credentials, his form is consistently precise in his demonstrations. Just as well, he is able and willing to address any and all questions, demonstrate applicable techniques, and do so on the spot perfectly.
    That may be true. Doesn't change the fact that the techniques are unrealistic. Much less the fact that the people there think that by training one hour a week you will become the deadly.

    I'm not speaking in exaggeration. I'm skeptical by nature, but I've been able to assuage the doubt that this sort of thread has generated by attending the classes in person for the time that I have.
    I'm quite skeptical too. I attended the class. My doubt was amplified to the power of Grey Skull.

    I'm currently Level 5 of 12 in Hargrave's system. So by no means am I an expert.
    Okay, so your halfway through his system and are admittedly not an expert. What secret insight knowledge do you have that tells you the effectiveness of the system? Have you used those moves on the skreet? Was there lava and needles?

    I have a background in Tae Kwon Do, having a black belt from a very long time ago. However, I am thoroughly impressed by Hargrave's system, his teaching method, his actual instruction, and his knowledge.
    Thats fine, you can be impressed. That again doesn't change how terrible it is.

    If I didn't think I would actually be learning real Jeet Kune Do from an instructor who knew what he was doing in his classes, I would quit. I really would. However, I haven't, and I firmly believe that says more about his instruction than it does my dedication.
    If this is what real JKD is, then people are oh so wrong about Bruce.

    There is a lot of bad blood within the JKD community. People fight over what is real JKD, what isn't, and whether or not a particular instructor is as good as he professes to be. I think if people would focus on the substance of the technique being taught rather than running around conducting witch hunts like what this is turning into, we would all be a lot better off.
    Not a witch hunt bub. If it was I'd have my pillagin shovel. There was almost no substance of reality in the techniques. Have you read the manual yet? It has to be one of the most entertaining things I have ever read. Especially the part about chi.

    I am certainly not Professor Hargrave. I obviously have no real way of proving that, so you'll just have to believe me.
    I know who you are based off your replies. He's far to rational to be Hargrave.

    As far as achieving level 5 so quickly - which has apparently been a sticking point in what I said - it's not due to the ease of the class. In fact, I've jumped 3 people who have been there since I began through working my ass off for a while. That and JKD just makes a lot of natural sense to me, to be honest. The cirriculum of learning within Hargrave's system is cumulative and increases in difficulty somewhat exponentially; I don't view my level 5 as particularly noteworthy in that regard.
    The school functions on a work at your own pace. The fact that the assistant instructor hardly knew the techniques says a lot about the testing standards.

    Please don't misunderstand me. I understand the concern you have in a lot of ways. I really do.
    Someone ending up in the hospital hurt or possibly dead?

    My calling this a witch hunt refers to the zealous nature with which it is being pursued. There are a lot of very legitimate concerns that have been raised. I was really disconcerted with what I was reading, and I imagine that I'll find out more in the future.
    I would actually advise against asking him about them if you intend on staying. This is based on the student he kicked out for using a technique from another school.

    However, the fact remains that Professor Hargrave truly does know this stuff like you would expect an expert of the craft to. That was the point in bringing up my personal experience. That has been the force keeping me from really putting much weight in this vendetta that seems to be held.
    If anyone should have a vendetta it's Joe for that bullshit the Hargrave pulled over a little email.

    I'm not calling it BS. I'm just saying that I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for conclusive evidence of fraud and deceit to surface because I'm very confident and comfortable in what I'm learning from the guy.
    I don't really think I'd call him a fraud. He absolutely joined those promotion circles and probably paid that money to them.

    Like I said before. If I didn't feel as though I was getting quality teaching in JKD from this, I would stop wasting my money and quit in a heartbeat. In fact, had I read this thread before beginning, I likely never would have.
    I'd like to point out again, had the training been even decent then I would still be training.

    However, I can safely say that joining was not a mistake, and that the quality of training that Hargrave provides, combined with his knowledge and mastery of the techniques he trains, has removed most doubt and concern raised by this thread that I would otherwise still retain.
    Have you competed? How often do you spar? What level of contact? Proof is in the actual state of pressure testing and refining.

    I'll tell you what. My personal goal is to work my ass off and get to level 12 before I get deployed sometime next year. When I do, I'll bring all of this up and ask him about it. I imagine if there's any truth to all of this, he'll tell me then. If/when that happens, I'll tell you what he says.
    So, if it takes you three years to get to level 12, that means in 156 hours of once a week training you have passed their black belt level test? Why wait that long? Why not ask him know if your curious? Furthermore, if he will only tell you after you have paid all that money, does that now come off as a HUGE red flag. Does that make purchasing your resume okay if it's after your done?

    Best of luck when ya get shipped. Lot of times i wish my knee hadn't jacked up like it did. Ask around about a guy they used to call cop killa. Man did we have some fun times with that guy. (ironicly he said he was a JKD masta too)

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