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  1. PointyShinyBurn is offline
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 6:48am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    I mean, come on Anthony, you know they intentionally didn't allow people who knew grappling and submissions well fight Royce...it didn't fucking happen.
    Shamrock? Pardoel?

    I've heard this accusation made a lot, and never seen any evidence of it. Got any?
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 2/18/2006 6:52am at .
  2. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Genius

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 11:02am

    supporting member
     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    1) He sued for excusive rights to use the term "Gracie Jujitsu".
    So what? If your family invented a product, would you want everyone else profitting off of your invention?

    2) That "triangle me"guard pass.
    I don't consider it really all that bad, it works if done properly.. like any other technique, it opens you up to something.

    3) He states that Judo players are familiar with "basic" ground-grappling.
    What's the problem with this statement? Judo focuses on standup throws, not ground work.

    4) He says that when he travelled to America he searched far and wide for a martial arts dojo that addressed the reality of ground-grappling. Did he visit any Judo dojos in that time? Submission wrestling? Sambo?
    Judo doesn't really address the reality of gound-grappling, they were (and often still are) taught to simply place themselves in a stalling position to prevent a submission. Sub wrestling and sambo places were rare in the USA until AFTER the Gracies started the grappling craze.

    5) He refers to Kimura several times as a Jujitsu fighter, he's a Judo fighter.
    I don't think he ever denies that BJJ evolved from Judo.

    6) He never mentions that it was Judo that was taught to Carlos by Maeda, and instead calls it Jujitsu.
    What's in a word? He might have called it karate.

    7) He suggests on his webpage that all grappling styles come from Gracie Jujitsu.
    Have a direct quote?

    That's all I can remember at the moment. Is Rorian ashamed of BJJ's Judo roots or something? Does Judo sound to sporty for a "street fighting style" to develop from?
    You could email him and find out the answers to your idiotic questions.

    I don't like Rorion much, but at least come up with some good reasons to dislike him. Here are my reasons.

    1. He is wealthy and I am not.
    2. He can break me if I wanted to beat him up.
    3. His mustache bothers me.
  3. Captain Spaulding is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 12:18pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I remember reading that the person that Rorion sued for using the term "Gracie Jiu-jitsu" was his cousin Reylson. In an interview on BJJ.org, Carly Gracie says, "I was quite surprised to learn a few years ago that Rorion had registered the name "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", and was starting to sue other members of the Gracie family, saying they could not use the Gracie name in connection with jiu-jitsu instruction in the United States... Rorion was suing one of my brothers..."

    From http://www.gracieacademy.com/

    "In 1993, when Rorion Gracie created the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC), his vision was to show that for real street combat no other discipline is as effective as Gracie or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Due to the success of the Gracie style there are many grappling arts out there with many different names such as: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Ju jitsu, Grappling, Submission Wrestling, Catch Wrestling and jui jitsu but they are all based on the same thing, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu."
  4. Firebrand is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 12:27pm


     Style: BJJ, Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Which brings up an interesting question. Are there any members of the Gracie Jiu Jitsu family teaching GJJ/BJJ that are not allowed to use the GJJ name?
  5. Captain Spaulding is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 12:35pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebrand
    Which brings up an interesting question. Are there any members of the Gracie Jiu Jitsu family teaching GJJ/BJJ that are not allowed to use the GJJ name?
    I think what ended up happening is that they couldn't say they taught "Gracie Jiu-jitsu" but they could use their entire names. For example, Renzo can say that he teaches "Renzo Gracie Jiu-jitsu."

    That's why almost everyone switched to calling it Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.
  6. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 3:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shamrock? Pardoel?

    I've heard this accusation made a lot, and never seen any evidence of it. Got any?
    Those guys both sucked royal balls on the ground...watch Shamrock's fight before he fights Gracie...WTF WAS THAT!? He had a few months training with the Pancrase guys, etc.

    If they wanted somebody to actually test Royce's skill, they could've gotten Bart Vale, but they didn't want that.

    Pardoel!? Jublowka, please!

    Funny, looked like fighting to me.
    Early Pancrase matches did too...

    I don't like Rorion much, but at least come up with some good reasons to dislike him. Here are my reasons.

    1. He is wealthy and I am not.
    2. He can break me if I wanted to beat him up.
    3. His mustache bothers me.
    You are a homosexual.
  7. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 5:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    ...I am not so blind that what you tell me I don't know of. I know what Laimon, Brennan, and others have said about their training. By the time I got to the Gracie Academy, my instructors were Ryron, Rener, and Ralek, with Rener running my private classes. I saw none of it. Obviously something did happen, or we woudln't have more than one person complain of it.

    I appreciate you taking the time to post this to me, and I wanted to return the favor. Alot of things happened before I got to the Gracie Academy to train. I saw none of this. I have never been ashamed of my Gracie Academy training, I've never been stupid enough to think that all I can learn I could at one place...
    I'll add my two cents to the discussion between Anthony and Aeso. As you both know I was there just after Harris and way before the sons started teaching. (Early to mid nineties). When I started Lowell Anderson and Richard were both brown belts teaching the white belts classes, Ethan was a purple assistant instructor, Royce was teaching the blue and up and Brennan was just a blue same as me. I don't remember Liamon at all and the upstairs "green" training room was non-existent. Intermediate and Advanced classes were held in the “large” room off the hall with the windows and the whites trained in the back which later became the locker room.

    The drama was hard to notice at first but after being there a year I started to pick up on it. I don’t remember who left first but during that time Richard, Lowell and Ethan all bailed. I believe Ethan and Lowell went to BHJJ and I forget where Richard went. The controversy was hush hush but had a lot to do with money and the lack of advancement. Brennan left as a blue and went to train in Brazil for a time. When he returned he had achieved more stripes and then he too bailed soon after. Word was he and Rorion disagreed about several things of which I can’t remember. The place was full of drama and the majority of it had roots with Rorion this and Rorion that. It did make for an uncomfortable atmosphere to say the least.

    Through it all however Royce was an excellent teacher and did seem to show way more technique than Rorion ever did. It was never blatant like “don’t tell Rorion” but the difference was evident. Rolker would come up to teach and he too was an excellent teacher. I remember feeling bad for Royce because it seemed he had no control over his life. Everything that was said or done appeared to me to be prompted by Rorion. This lead to a lot of negative talk towards Royce from the MA community and it used to piss me off. Royce was not one to duck fights or challengers and certainly was not hand picking his opponents. Rorion however did all of those and was like a puppet master.

    Don’t get me wrong, Rorion was a nice guy and he did have a ton of technique to share but he just seemed to be too much into what we considered the exploitation of Royce and his skills. Royce was willing to do anything and this was used to Rorion’s own ends for promotion and money. I left after about two years to train elsewhere due to the BS and the outrageous fees I was paying. I still to this day wish Royce the best of luck but as far as Rorion…
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  8. Pandinha is offline

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 5:33pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Elvis
    I'll add my two cents to the discussion between Anthony and Aeso. As you both know I was there just after Harris and way before the sons started teaching. (Early to mid nineties). When I started Lowell Anderson and Richard were both brown belts teaching the white belts classes, Ethan was a purple assistant instructor, Royce was teaching the blue and up and Brennan was just a blue same as me. I don't remember Liamon at all and the upstairs "green" training room was non-existent. Intermediate and Advanced classes were held in the “large” room off the hall with the windows and the whites trained in the back which later became the locker room.

    The drama was hard to notice at first but after being there a year I started to pick up on it. I don’t remember who left first but during that time Richard, Lowell and Ethan all bailed. I believe Ethan and Lowell went to BHJJ and I forget where Richard went. The controversy was hush hush but had a lot to do with money and the lack of advancement. Brennan left as a blue and went to train in Brazil for a time. When he returned he had achieved more stripes and then he too bailed soon after. Word was he and Rorion disagreed about several things of which I can’t remember. The place was full of drama and the majority of it had roots with Rorion this and Rorion that. It did make for an uncomfortable atmosphere to say the least.

    Through it all however Royce was an excellent teacher and did seem to show way more technique than Rorion ever did. It was never blatant like “don’t tell Rorion” but the difference was evident. Rolker would come up to teach and he too was an excellent teacher. I remember feeling bad for Royce because it seemed he had no control over his life. Everything that was said or done appeared to me to be prompted by Rorion. This lead to a lot of negative talk towards Royce from the MA community and it used to piss me off. Royce was not one to duck fights or challengers and certainly was not hand picking his opponents. Rorion however did all of those and was like a puppet master.

    Don’t get me wrong, Rorion was a nice guy and he did have a ton of technique to share but he just seemed to be too much into what we considered the exploitation of Royce and his skills. Royce was willing to do anything and this was used to Rorion’s own ends for promotion and money. I left after about two years to train elsewhere due to the BS and the outrageous fees I was paying. I still to this day wish Royce the best of luck but as far as Rorion…
    Thanks Bro for your words and experiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  9. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 5:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Thanks Bro for your words and experiences.
    Anthony - when did Royce stop teaching there? I never knew what happened after I left because the sons were just orange belts at that time.
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  10. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 5:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't see how you can know what an ass Rorion is and still defend him Anthony.
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