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  1. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2006 9:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    As for Rorion...
    Rorion is the father of the UFC in the United States.
    That's a piece of intellectual property, not a claim to MA skill credibility. Rather like Don King isn't somebody who could teach you how to box.

    2. Rorion made his family art the premier grappling art in the world.
    No he didn't, he publicised the fact that his relatives were teaching a great grappling art, and talked some bullshit along the way


    3. Rorion, is one of the keenest business men I've ever met, one of the warmest when talking about business or when he was showing me a choke right.


    WTF does this have to do with whether or not he talks sense about martial arts ?

    Sure, you like the guy from personal experience. That's great. But there are lots of McDojo 'grandmasters' who are great businessmen too. That's not relevant here.

    4. Rorion has ensured that Gracie Jiu Jitsu will never be a McDojo.
    No he hasn't. That's the responsibility of everybody claiming to teach GJJ.

    5. Rorion has the admiration of the masses, as well as the hatred of idiots such as yourself.

    Now as for Cullion...

    1. He does Tai Chi. One of the most deadliest arts known to man. I read that somewhere.
    And it degenerates.. you lose.
    Last edited by Cullion; 2/17/2006 9:31pm at .
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  2. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2006 9:35pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for Rorion...



    That's a piece of intellectual property, not a claim to MA skill credibility. Rather like Don King isn't somebody who could teach you how to box.


    You really are an idiot. The first UFC's showed Gracie Jiu Jitsu beating all comers.


    No he didn't, he publicised the fact that his relatives were teaching a great grappling art, and talked some bullshit along the way


    Teaching and beating all comers. Except for your boy JFS and his challenges of course.







    3. Rorion, is one of the keenest business men I've ever met, one of the warmest when talking about business or when he was showing me a choke right. [/i]

    WTF does this have to do with whether or not he talks sense about martial arts ?

    Sure, you like the guy from personal experience. That's great. But there are lots of McDojo 'grandmasters' who are great businessmen too. That's not relevant here.


    You have cemented your status to me as a "bonafide idiot". Calling Gracie Jiu Jitsu a McDojo is akin to saying Tai Chi is the premeir fighting art. It's that unlikely in this plane of existence.


    No he hasn't. That's the responsibility of everybody claiming to teach GJJ.


    Again, you speak from ignorance. Rorion has trademarked Gracie Jiu Jitsu with only family members able to use it in that form, insuring that PURE WATER JIU JITSU stays.


    And it degenerates.. you lose.[/QUOTE]


    Whatever makes your CMA/Kung Fu apologist self esteem feel better.

    At the end of the day, you talk about him. I see Rorion wondering what Cullion is doing in Tai Chi class next week.


    hahahahahahahahahah
    Last edited by Pandinha; 2/17/2006 9:37pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  3. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2006 9:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    As for Rorion...



    That's a piece of intellectual property, not a claim to MA skill credibility. Rather like Don King isn't somebody who could teach you how to box.


    You really are an idiot. The first UFC's showed Gracie Jiu Jitsu beating all comers.
    No, you're the idiot here, because I'm not criticising Royce, I'm talking about Rorion, and Rorion wasn't in the ring, was he ?


    No he didn't, he publicised the fact that his relatives were teaching a great grappling art, and talked some bullshit along the way


    Teaching and beating all comers. Except for your boy JFS and his challenges of course.
    As is obviously relevant to the topic here, it wasn't Rorion in the ring.


    You have cemented your status to me as a "bonafide idiot". Calling Gracie Jiu Jitsu a McDojo is akin to saying Tai Chi is the premeir fighting art. It's that unlikely in this plane of existence.
    You're a fucking idiot if you can't see that Rorion is McDojo. In fact, there's even some Bullshido in the mix. Now where were those gun & knife defence seminar pics ?

    Again, you speak from ignorance. Rorion has trademarked Gracie Jiu Jitsu with only family members able to use it in that form, insuring that PURE WATER JIU JITSU stays.
    I'D LOVE TO SEE YOUR DEFENCE OF 'PURE WATER JIU JITSU GUN DEFENCE ETC THAT EVEN AESO AND OS THINK ARE BOOSHIT, MATE.' PERHAPS YOU SHOULD HAVE A CONFERENCE ABOUT THAT?
    Last edited by Cullion; 2/17/2006 9:54pm at .
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  4. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2006 10:11pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought it was common knowledge that the first few UFCs were basically GJJ advertisements.

    Of course that doesn't mean GJJ is any less effective even if Rorion makes money off of every opponent Royce topples.
  5. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2006 10:32pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    No, you're the idiot here, because I'm not criticising Royce, I'm talking about Rorion, and Rorion wasn't in the ring, was he ?



    As is obviously relevant to the topic here, it wasn't Rorion in the ring.




    You're a fucking idiot if you can't see that Rorion is McDojo. In fact, there's even some Bullshido in the mix. Now where were those gun & knife defence seminar pics ?



    I'D LOVE TO SEE YOUR DEFENCE OF 'PURE WATER JIU JITSU GUN DEFENCE ETC THAT EVEN AESO AND OS THINK ARE BOOSHIT, MATE.' PERHAPS YOU SHOULD HAVE A CONFERENCE ABOUT THAT?
    Who was Royce's teacher? Forget it, you dont' have to answer that, you have no idea. Just because you have never seen Rorion fight, oh wait, Gracies In Action has Rorion fighting.

    Oh yeah, Rorion is a McDojo, we using your definition now? The same definition that JFS wasn't BULLSHIDO?

    I dont' have to defend the gun or knife disarm as my own personal views on the subject are quite prevalent on Bullshido.net. I think any type of defense is bullshit.

    Ths is CULLION arguing.

    If it has to do with KUNG FU or CMA, he'll argue white is blue, that water is not wet, just as long as KUNG FU RULES J00

    If it has to do with BJJ or grappling, he'll argue white is blue, that water is not wet, just as long as he STICKS IT TO ALL THE GRAPPLERS.

    Not everyone can train in a real martial art, and I'm sure there' a reason you do Tai Chi. How about not transfering your feelings about your martial arts to anyone else's?


    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  6. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 1:57am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anthony,

    I know you have a personal friendship with Rorion, and his sons rub your belly and make you giggle ^_^ kekekeke and let's all get together for a group hug, here's a photo of Helio's jocularly doing a mata leao on me that man is a hero and a saint.

    That's all fine and well.

    But if you're going to let that make you blind to the obviously underhanded actions Rorion has taken, then you're on the same level as KFDW and the Maryland Crw when they defend JFS because "hay man hes a nice guy in purson" and "he culd kick ur ass!" and "so wut if he padded his resume its just marketing?"

    By all accounts, Rorion is very friendly to his students and they in turn have a lot of respect and loyalty for him, as I am sure you will agree. I've seen his matches in Gracies In Action so I know he can fight, and I got some big laffs out of him collar choking Hapkido black belts with the skinny collars on their fancy black gis. His sons have done well in tournament and I enjoy watching them achilles lock everyone. So I'm not questioning his knowledge. Of course I am grateful that he put together the first UFCs and brought his family's art to America. And as you may know, I'm a pretty big fan of BJJ.

    But despite all this, I can still see that Rorion did some really sleazy things to his family and students.

    I'm sure you're familiar with Roy Harris' account of training at the Torrence academy. He posted it on the UG in 2001, and it has made its rounds ever since. I know I've posted it at least once or twice, so hopefully you've read it by now. Let's just review it again anyway for olde thymes sake:
    When I arrived, I was met by Professor Rorion Gracie. He showed me around his facility and introduced me to everyone. It was a very nice experience. I purchased my first kimono and began my private training with Royler Gracie. This was sometime around December of 1990 or January of 1991.

    I had a ton of fun training at the Gracie Academy. Even though I had to drive two hours and forty minutes one way to get to the academy, and even though I had to fight through the congested LA traffic on my way home, I thoroughly enjoyed my time there! I especially looked forward to training with Royler because he seemed to teach from his heart!

    Later in my training, I found out that Royler was headed back to Brazil and that Rickson would be leaving the Academy soon. So, I was told to train with Rorion for awhile for my private lessons. I didn't have much choice, but hey, it's all Jiu Jitsu.

    When I started my private lessons with Rorion, I knew something was different about him. This man knew how to teach and how to make people feel good about themselves. I had a great time learning from Rorion. He taught me a lot about Jiu Jitsu. The pace was a bit slow for me, but still I learned an awful lot from him about Jiu Jitsu!

    Next, I was told to continue my private training with Royce. However, I ended up taking just group classes instead, and I learned a ton of stuff from Royce. He was a good teacher. However, I noticed certain things about the way he taught. For example, every now and then he would close the door to the training room, look out the window down the hall towards Rorion's office and say: "Don't tell Rorion I showed this to you, and don't do this when Rorion is around. Royce would then proceed to show us some really interesting stuff." I thought his actions were a bit peculiar, but none the less, I kept on enjoying Jiu Jitsu!

    My training at the Gracie Academy continued until August of 1992. At that time, an article had been written about me in the San Diego Union and Tribune newspaper. This article caused Rorion to re-evaluate my training there. Rorion told me that it was not fair that I make money off of him by teaching Jiu Jitsu. He said I would now have to pay him $100 per class if I was going to continue training at the Academy. I told Rorion the following:

    "I told you (Rorion) about the self-defense class I taught at the University on several occasions. I even asked you if it was all right if I taught the students a few Gracie Jiu Jitsu techniques. You said it was OK as long as I didn't wear a Gracie Jiu Jitsu shirt while teaching."

    "I also told you (Rorion) that I make $60 a month teaching my self-defense, and that I would give you $30 of it because you were my instructor."

    I also said, "Rorion, I am paying $240 a month to train with you and your brothers (not to mention the driving time, the gas and the headache of dealing with LA traffic). I have done all of this for almost two years now. Doesn't that show you the kind of loyalty I have for you and your brothers?"

    To this Rorion replied, "I am sorry my friend. But this is my final offer." I said, "Rorion, paying $100 per class would mean I would be paying $1400 a month to continue my training with you. I don't have that kind of money." He said, "I am sorry."

    So, I shook his hand and left the Academy for the last time. That was a very sad day in my martial arts training experience! I was heart broken after that incident. I had dumped my soul into that Academy (not to mention my loyalty to Rorion and Royce) and now I was being treated like a number.

    Roy Harris

    P.S. Rorion, if you are reading this, I hope you know you hurt me a lot on that day. I had put a lot of trust into you, your brothers and your academy, and because you allowed money to come between us, I felt like my loyatly to you meant nothing, and that really hurt! I thought I was your friend because you called me your friend.

    Rorion and Royce, I wish things would have turned out different. I wish we could have remained friends over the years. However, both of you made choices (and said things) that severely impacted my life, and because of it I am now training with Professor Moreira, and my loyalty lies with him. He has my greatest respect and loyalty, something you both had, but discarded. Maybe you can learn something from my pain. If not, that's OK.

    I wish both of you continued success in all your endeavors!

    I could pull up more quotes and stories like this, but at the moment I don't feel like finding Carlson's story about Rorion lying to a news reporter and saying he was the national champion for 20 years and he invented the Gracie Diet and that Carlos Sr. was Helio's assistant. Or Marc Laimon's story of quiting the Torrence academy because Rorion was holding back techniques. Or the fuss he made over the rules and arguing with the refs when Laimon fought Ryron. Or a white belt Yrkoon getting trianglols on bewildered GJJ blue belts who repeatedly did the Gracie Gift while visiting BHJJ. I'm sure you've read them all before.

    Which makes me wonder why I'm bothering with this again.

    I expect this will just get you to start calling me names, or dismiss everything I said, or possibly start an investigation to prove that I've been compromised by The CMA Conspiracy and that Cullion and I are homolovers.

    I was thinking of ending this with a final plea to try to view issues more objectively and not let your feelings cloud your judgment, and show how you compromise your attack on JFS by being unable to apply the same "Bullshido is black or white, all or none" standards to one of your friends and mix in some KFDW posts to show how you're acting like your vile enemy.

    But we both know nothing is going to change your mind.

    So instead I'll just close with this.

  7. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 2:07am


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Next, I was told to continue my private training with Royce. However, I ended up taking just group classes instead, and I learned a ton of stuff from Royce. He was a good teacher. However, I noticed certain things about the way he taught. For example, every now and then he would close the door to the training room, look out the window down the hall towards Rorion's office and say: "Don't tell Rorion I showed this to you, and don't do this when Rorion is around. Royce would then proceed to show us some really interesting stuff." I thought his actions were a bit peculiar, but none the less, I kept on enjoying Jiu Jitsu!
    So...i wonder, where does Royce's true loyalty reside?

    Interesting to say the least.
  8. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 2:17am

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Anthony,

    I know you have a personal friendship with Rorion, and his sons rub your belly and make you giggle ^_^ kekekeke and let's all get together for a group hug, here's a photo of Helio's jocularly doing a mata leao on me that man is a hero and a saint.

    That's all fine and well.

    But if you're going to let that make you blind to the obviously underhanded actions Rorion has taken, then you're on the same level as KFDW and the Maryland Crw when they defend JFS because "hay man hes a nice guy in purson" and "he culd kick ur ass!" and "so wut if he padded his resume its just marketing?"

    By all accounts, Rorion is very friendly to his students and they in turn have a lot of respect and loyalty for him, as I am sure you will agree. I've seen his matches in Gracies In Action so I know he can fight, and I got some big laffs out of him collar choking Hapkido black belts with the skinny collars on their fancy black gis. His sons have done well in tournament and I enjoy watching them achilles lock everyone. So I'm not questioning his knowledge. Of course I am grateful that he put together the first UFCs and brought his family's art to America. And as you may know, I'm a pretty big fan of BJJ.

    But despite all this, I can still see that Rorion did some really sleazy things to his family and students.

    I'm sure you're familiar with Roy Harris' account of training at the Torrence academy. He posted it on the UG in 2001, and it has made its rounds ever since. I know I've posted it at least once or twice, so hopefully you've read it by now. Let's just review it again anyway for olde thymes sake:
    When I arrived, I was met by Professor Rorion Gracie. He showed me around his facility and introduced me to everyone. It was a very nice experience. I purchased my first kimono and began my private training with Royler Gracie. This was sometime around December of 1990 or January of 1991.

    I had a ton of fun training at the Gracie Academy. Even though I had to drive two hours and forty minutes one way to get to the academy, and even though I had to fight through the congested LA traffic on my way home, I thoroughly enjoyed my time there! I especially looked forward to training with Royler because he seemed to teach from his heart!

    Later in my training, I found out that Royler was headed back to Brazil and that Rickson would be leaving the Academy soon. So, I was told to train with Rorion for awhile for my private lessons. I didn't have much choice, but hey, it's all Jiu Jitsu.

    When I started my private lessons with Rorion, I knew something was different about him. This man knew how to teach and how to make people feel good about themselves. I had a great time learning from Rorion. He taught me a lot about Jiu Jitsu. The pace was a bit slow for me, but still I learned an awful lot from him about Jiu Jitsu!

    Next, I was told to continue my private training with Royce. However, I ended up taking just group classes instead, and I learned a ton of stuff from Royce. He was a good teacher. However, I noticed certain things about the way he taught. For example, every now and then he would close the door to the training room, look out the window down the hall towards Rorion's office and say: "Don't tell Rorion I showed this to you, and don't do this when Rorion is around. Royce would then proceed to show us some really interesting stuff." I thought his actions were a bit peculiar, but none the less, I kept on enjoying Jiu Jitsu!

    My training at the Gracie Academy continued until August of 1992. At that time, an article had been written about me in the San Diego Union and Tribune newspaper. This article caused Rorion to re-evaluate my training there. Rorion told me that it was not fair that I make money off of him by teaching Jiu Jitsu. He said I would now have to pay him $100 per class if I was going to continue training at the Academy. I told Rorion the following:

    "I told you (Rorion) about the self-defense class I taught at the University on several occasions. I even asked you if it was all right if I taught the students a few Gracie Jiu Jitsu techniques. You said it was OK as long as I didn't wear a Gracie Jiu Jitsu shirt while teaching."

    "I also told you (Rorion) that I make $60 a month teaching my self-defense, and that I would give you $30 of it because you were my instructor."

    I also said, "Rorion, I am paying $240 a month to train with you and your brothers (not to mention the driving time, the gas and the headache of dealing with LA traffic). I have done all of this for almost two years now. Doesn't that show you the kind of loyalty I have for you and your brothers?"

    To this Rorion replied, "I am sorry my friend. But this is my final offer." I said, "Rorion, paying $100 per class would mean I would be paying $1400 a month to continue my training with you. I don't have that kind of money." He said, "I am sorry."

    So, I shook his hand and left the Academy for the last time. That was a very sad day in my martial arts training experience! I was heart broken after that incident. I had dumped my soul into that Academy (not to mention my loyalty to Rorion and Royce) and now I was being treated like a number.

    Roy Harris

    P.S. Rorion, if you are reading this, I hope you know you hurt me a lot on that day. I had put a lot of trust into you, your brothers and your academy, and because you allowed money to come between us, I felt like my loyatly to you meant nothing, and that really hurt! I thought I was your friend because you called me your friend.

    Rorion and Royce, I wish things would have turned out different. I wish we could have remained friends over the years. However, both of you made choices (and said things) that severely impacted my life, and because of it I am now training with Professor Moreira, and my loyalty lies with him. He has my greatest respect and loyalty, something you both had, but discarded. Maybe you can learn something from my pain. If not, that's OK.

    I wish both of you continued success in all your endeavors!

    I could pull up more quotes and stories like this, but at the moment I don't feel like finding Carlson's story about Rorion lying to a news reporter and saying he was the national champion for 20 years and he invented the Gracie Diet and that Carlos Sr. was Helio's assistant. Or Marc Laimon's story of quiting the Torrence academy because Rorion was holding back techniques. Or the fuss he made over the rules and arguing with the refs when Laimon fought Ryron. Or a white belt Yrkoon getting trianglols on bewildered GJJ blue belts who repeatedly did the Gracie Gift while visiting BHJJ. I'm sure you've read them all before.

    Which makes me wonder why I'm bothering with this again.

    I expect this will just get you to start calling me names, or dismiss everything I said, or possibly start an investigation to prove that I've been compromised by The CMA Conspiracy and that Cullion and I are homolovers.

    I was thinking of ending this with a final plea to try to view issues more objectively and not let your feelings cloud your judgment, and show how you compromise your attack on JFS by being unable to apply the same "Bullshido is black or white, all or none" standards to one of your friends and mix in some KFDW posts to show how you're acting like your vile enemy.

    But we both know nothing is going to change your mind.

    So instead I'll just close with this.


    Quite the opposite Aeso, I've read all those stories by Roy Harris, I feel sorry for him having to go through that, it happened. Also of note, Rorion wasn't the only who then held back training. Thankfully Roy found Mestre Joe Moreira and has been quite happy with him. I think very highly of Professor Roy Harris, I took an hour private with him when I was in San Diego last. He helped me with BigMan Jits on top and how to apply pressure.

    I am not so blind that what you tell me I don't know of. I know what Laimon, Brennan, and others have said about their training. By the time I got to the Gracie Academy, my instructors were Ryron, Rener, and Ralek, with Rener running my private classes. I saw none of it. Obviously something did happen, or we woudln't have more than one person complain of it. I cannot comment on it, I wasn't there, and the training I received was top notch. The leg over the shoulder pass is trained to brand new students for them to drill showing attention to detail. I haven't used it since 2004, when friendly rolling during Vancouver TD with Chaossexmacina, who then triangled me. The fucker. :) <<< No lie.

    I appreciate you taking the time to post this to me, and I wanted to return the favor. Alot of things happened before I got to the Gracie Academy to train. I saw none of this. I have never been ashamed of my Gracie Academy training, I've never been stupid enough to think that all I can learn I could at one place.

    I lost a 100 buck bet to Mayhem Miller over Ryron and Laimon. At the end of the day, wanting no rules and submission wins only gives the Gracie's the upper hand. Again, I wasn't there, and even watching the clips were not enough. I paid my money to Mayhem.

    I am loyal to Rorion, boys and TGA for the training they gave me. I cannot argue for or against anyone else's experiences, but only mine.
    Last edited by Pandinha; 2/18/2006 2:23am at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  9. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 3:19am

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Was there any active submission wrestling in america prior to bjj though?
    All the tournaments I can think of came after the fact. And catch doesn't count because it is lame and doesn't exist in any real accesible form.
    Bart Vale was doing Shootfighting in the early 90s, that's who my instructor learned from, but he was like the Whorion of Puroresu, he copyrighted the word "Shootfighting" and charged too much for association fees, and basically screwed up everything.

    But he did know what he was doing, and taught pretty good grappling. He's affiliated with Tracy's Kenpo, so he did seminars at Kenpo schools and some of them joined his Shootfighting association, one of them was my instructor's. He isn't associated with Vale anymore.

    1. Who gives a ****, Rorion bashing is no longer relevant and went out in the mid ninties.
    Whorion bashing is like leisure suits...never out of style.

    5. Rorion has the admiration of the masses
    You're biased because you've met him. He's an asshole, whether or not he was nice to you, one of his customers, in a very shallow and insignificant way.

    You really are an idiot. The first UFC's showed Gracie Jiu Jitsu beating all comers.
    You really are an idiot if you think the Gracies were the only legit fighters at the time. I mean, come on Anthony, you know they intentionally didn't allow people who knew grappling and submissions well fight Royce...it didn't fucking happen.

    No, you're the idiot here, because I'm not criticising Royce, I'm talking about Rorion, and Rorion wasn't in the ring, was he ?
    Rest assured Cuntlion, you're an idiot too.

    I am loyal to Rorion
    You shouldn't be.
  10. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2006 6:33am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Who was Royce's teacher? Forget it, you dont' have to answer that, you have no idea. Just because you have never seen Rorion fight, oh wait, Gracies In Action has Rorion fighting.

    Oh yeah, Rorion is a McDojo, we using your definition now? The same definition that JFS wasn't BULLSHIDO?

    I dont' have to defend the gun or knife disarm as my own personal views on the subject are quite prevalent on Bullshido.net. I think any type of defense is bullshit.

    Ths is CULLION arguing.

    If it has to do with KUNG FU or CMA, he'll argue white is blue, that water is not wet, just as long as KUNG FU RULES J00

    If it has to do with BJJ or grappling, he'll argue white is blue, that water is not wet, just as long as he STICKS IT TO ALL THE GRAPPLERS.

    Not everyone can train in a real martial art, and I'm sure there' a reason you do Tai Chi. How about not transfering your feelings about your martial arts to anyone else's?


    Thanks.
    I was big enough to see your point of view when appropriate evidence was presented. You have no real arguments so you're trying to turn this into another boring CMA vs. BJJ thread. Grow up.
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