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  1. emboesso is offline

    I suck Rudy Abel's Dick, I love the taste.

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 4:15pm


     Style: Traditional TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    No one has yet addressed the fact that the school in question has not been visited.

    Respectfully,

    J. Epps
    Who are you? Josef Goebbels? Do you think telling a lie often enough makes it the truth? I said I saw the school a few posts back. Sheesh. That's what I meant about you not listening to what I'm saying.

    If you like, I can do what Datdamn suggested, and sit there with a notepad and critique it in depth and report back here honestly. Trust me, from what I've seen you wouldn't want me to do that. It'd get real ugly.

    Why is it so hard for you to admit that there may be a McDojo in this marvelous organization you've joined?

    And I see on your webpage you're taking my advice and going to add credentials. Good move, despite your argument that they're unnecessary and mean nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by pma edmond
    http://www.pmaedmond.com/index.cfm?page=4


    Jason Epps (Chief Instructor)
    Jason Epps has numerous credentials and accomplishments. We will be updating this section shortly to detail them.

    Jim Crawford (Instructor)
    Jim Crawford has numerous credentials and accomplishments. We will be updating this section shortly to detail them.


    Dustin Manis (Instructor)
    Dustin Manis has numerous credentials and accomplishments. We will be updating this section shortly to detail them.

    Michelle Manis (Instructor)
    Michelle Manis has numerous credentials and accomplishments. We will be updating this section shortly to detail them.

    etc., etc. etc.
    But I know where you're coming from:

    Quote Originally Posted by PMA

    http://www.unitedprofessionals.com/PMG/pmg_success.php

    I wanted to give a testament to the power and benefits of Premier Management Group. You mentioned during a conference call about doing a karate program for local Day Cares. That sparked my Program Director, Mike Sandifur into action and he called the three La Petite´s Day Cares around our school.
    Yesterday two of them brought all the school age kids over for a field trip. We had thirty three kids attend. We followed up with a mass intro tonight. A total of nine kids showed up for the mass intro. We signed up three families and two families paid in full, and one more is coming back in tomorrow! That put us over our new enrollment goal for December and helped us hit our December gross monthly goal!
    A year ago I was signing up only three to four people on a good month. For the fifth month in a row we have signed up record new students for us. We were billing $4,000 monthly we now bill almost $15,000.
    The moral of this story is a man with experience is never at the mercy to a man with a theory. The leaders in PMG have the experience. I am excited about the future of Premier Management Group and Premier Martial Arts and I am proud and honored to be a part of it. I am a man who barely has a high school education. I have never made over $22,000 a year. This year our school did over $120,000. I know that is chump change to a lot of school owners. But it is proof that great things do happen to those who persevere. I have always dreamed of doing great things through the martial arts. I never would have dreamed this big.
    God Bless,
    J. Epps
    Premier Martial Arts – Oklahoma
    Usually when martial artists say they want to do great things, they don't mean make money doing it. Usually it involves some kinds of techniques or fighting or competitions or something. To each his own I guess.
      #71
  2. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 4:54pm


     Style: Hiatus for Gen. Fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Keeping a legitimate school whose instructors are skilled and experienced growing and expanding (or even just not closing) is a great thing, and it is one of the positives of a management group.

    The negative, which I think Mr. Epps is missing, is that it is a double-edged sword. Professional management can keep a school open and profitable even when the instructors aren't skilled or experienced.

    Mr Epps, you mentioned not applying to a college without visiting it first. I would say that before you even get around to visiting it, you check out the information available. Does the college have your major? Is it known as a good school for your major? How big is the department for your major? If the answers are no, or if they don't even mention what fields of study they specialize in, why would you even visit the college? Checking up on qualifications comes before any actual visit is made.

    Who decides if a teacher is qualified? A possible student. How does the possible student decide this? By looking at the teacher's credentials. If an instructor's credentials don't pass muster in my opinion, why would I want to waste my time and theirs with a visit and a discussion? If I cannot find information about the instructor, then I have to visit the school to find out, or call. But, and this applies to school being discussed, when information is available but all it focuses on is how the instructor thought it'd be a good way to make money (without a single word as to the crendentials for teaching,) and how successful the business is, then the focus is in the wrong place. Why would a prospective student care that the owner of the school is making tons of money and is a skilled entrepenuer? Is he trying to sign people up for classes or sell shares to investors? All of the information provided gives one, solid impression: he took all that time to tell me how successful his business is without devoting a single line to his training history. I didn't even see a "having trained in the martial arts for 20 years" line; did I miss it? Even without getting into the specifics of who and where, that is pertinent data, is it not?
      #72
  3. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 5:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks emboesso for that, I needed it. Also Mr. Epps, you are making an assumption when you say that the general public doesn't care about qualifications. It's like saying the general public doesn't care about the quality of the car they purchased because they are not a mechanic. Keep something in mind about the so called public and I'll use my job as an example. Most of the people I work with if not almost all of them have no interest in the martial arts but when they have martial arts questions who do you think they go to...me, if one of those questions happens to be "I want to try something, what should I try...", they are going to come to me. If the question is...wait for it....wait for it...."I'm looking into training with this particular person, what do you recommend..."? Guess what I'm going to do.

    That should be reason enough to display your qualifications cause someone like me can easily remove enough students from someone's school becuase I feel they are not truthful in their qualifications. And what if those students cause others to leave. It will be a chain reaction.

    Also, by you now listing your qualifications I'm curious. I don't see double talk, I see and start to think, "...maybe I want to train with this person". Didn't think that before. Another fact, with MMA becoming mainstreem and websites like this one leading the charge in uncovering B.S. more and more people are going to be looking towards sites like these to answer their martial arts questions. It's like how most people don't do all their shopping on Amazon, they use those search engines to find the best deals and buy from that specific sit once they've found it. If the search engine doesn't turn up any results(i.e. never heard of that school) or high prices(this school is bullshido) then guess who gets your business...your competition.

    In the past, you didn't question master about who his teacher was, who he trained under, how long, etc. That's just not the case anymore. With so much fraud out there, it's better to be part of the solution, instead of the problem.

    Back to the person this article was orginally about, until he updates his page with something other then what seems to be a really overblown sales pitch; he is going to continue to get static from the users on this board. Question, has anyone invited him to this thread yet?
      #73
  4. emboesso is offline

    I suck Rudy Abel's Dick, I love the taste.

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 5:16pm


     Style: Traditional TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy
    All of the information provided gives one, solid impression: he took all that time to tell me how successful his business is without devoting a single line to his training history. I didn't even see a "having trained in the martial arts for 20 years" line; did I miss it? Even without getting into the specifics of who and where, that is pertinent data, is it not?
    Of course it is pertinent.

    These websites give insight into these instructors' frames of mind. They see the people in their schools as sources of income first, students second. When money is prioritized so far ahead of everything else, you can be certain the demands put upon the students will be diminished accordingly so as not to interrupt the money flow.

    Is that wrong? I dunno. I never did it for a living so I won't pass judgement too harshly.

    I kind of liked the old way, where if you acted up the teacher bounced you from the school. Now you have 11 year-old kids waving around contracts saying "Nyah, nyah! You can't toss me out. I got a contract!"

    I remember when even McDojo-ish instructors used to keep their dedicated/serious students after class and give them private instruction, recognizing their potential. Or if they couldn't afford classes, giving them discounts and part-time work cleaning up the school after class. It wasn't ALWAYS ALL about money.

    But these guys have no shame about showing their hand in public. It is distasteful.
      #74
  5. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 5:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CNagy, you were writing your post as I was writing mine, great point made, as well by others. Again Mr. Epps, not a personal attack, we are explaining why people think his creds are suspect. Again, lets invite this man to this thread...if he isn't here already. If it turns out he is qualified, then we'll just give him some friendly advice:

    Put it on your page!
    (That's what I'd say, what the others may say however....who knows...may also make note that TKD probably isn't the best MA for self defense and that he should state that but whatever; after all, you even stated that)

    If not, then so begins the path down the long road called "bulllllllllllshit"!
      #75
  6. emboesso is offline

    I suck Rudy Abel's Dick, I love the taste.

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 5:26pm


     Style: Traditional TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine
    Question, has anyone invited him to this thread yet?
    I haven't. Even if someone did, I doubt he would respond. My polite and respectful e-mail was ignored.

    Estimating the number of students he apparently has, he already is more successful than any TKD grandmaster I've known of in the NYC area in the past 30 years. Probably any martial art instructor PERIOD in the area. Which is why I'm getting the dry heaves.

    I can only assume he believes putting his credentials out there can only hurt his business.
      #76
  7. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 5:26pm


     Style: Hiatus for Gen. Fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hell, if the guy has decent qualifications, it's not even bad marketing to post them. How many prospective students without a bias against a style are going to pass it up because the instructor is only 3rd dan (as an example)? When it gets to the point that you are exclusively looking for upper dan ranking instructors, you are going to do your homework anyway, call people, and fact check.
      #77
  8. buu is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 10:24pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys are making excellent points. I apologize for misreading the fact that you did visist the school. As a martial artist first, teacher second, and a business owner third I will add the following:

    I agree it is possible to sacifice quality for dollars. The MAJORITY of the schools I have visited over the years icluding the "hardcore". All look like crap. From any standpoint, whether they were tournament competitors, full contact, or tai chi. The majority of the schools (80-90%) are not up to par. In my opinion.

    Either the quality of teaching wasn't there, or the quality of technique. As a matter of fact, half the links that pop up on this website fall into that category. It is a double edged sword of quality versus staying open, unless you realize these key things.

    1) Not everyone thinks like you
    2) Not everyone wants the same thing out of their training
    3) What is a good martial art or martial artist is way too subjective

    The fact that this person is one of the most successful school owners in his area speaks volumes. If you have a crap product or service word gets out. Apparently it has for him and people like what they are buying (Even without his credentials being listed).

    I took my credentials off my website a year and a half ago. I get more calls without them listed. BTW- when you leave the field blank on my website it automatically fills in the text about coming soon...I did not take your advice.

    I care more about quality in the martial arts industry, probably more than anyone here. I enjoy the interaction here just as much. It seems that you guys are passionate about your concerns. There will always be the problem of quality- without a universal standard. hat do you propose that standard be?

    We are at a standstill without a standard. There will never be a universal standard, and I along many others will continue to positively affect the martial arts community by at least trying to set a standard. There are many arts that I train and have a great deal of respect for that many here disagree over. Unfortunately, there will always be those that merely criticize and offerl no solution to go along with their critiques (other than a eb forum)

    You posted my testimonial- I will try to post the whole thing. They left out the part about about me living in my school, and taking every crap job available to keep the school open. I moved to OKC from Dallas to get away from a highly dysfunctional family. I didn't know anyone, and barely having a high school education. I worked my tail off to get to where I am at. I am thankful to PMA for the opportunity to get an education in running and managing a successful school. I am very proud of where I am today. I didn't have to sell out. Twelve years ago I was teaching in a backroom of a church, I know own one the largest all martial arts facilities in the country( 17,000 square feet). I welcome you to come and be a part of what we do. I am very proud of my students and my staff who teaches them. If making money doing what you love is wrong- then call Oprah, I'm sure she would love to hear about it.

    One more point- If I were a non-martial artist visiting this site: I would think all schools and instructors suck. Why? Because they all have been attacked. This website seems to be forum for martiial artists to trash talk easch other, nothing more.

    That's my opinion anyway.

    Respectfully,

    J. Epps
      #78
  9. emboesso is offline

    I suck Rudy Abel's Dick, I love the taste.

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2006 11:19am


     Style: Traditional TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    You guys are making excellent points. I apologize for misreading the fact that you did visist the school. As a martial artist first, teacher second, and a business owner third I will add the following:
    You've come a long way from your "I'm running a business here" attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    I agree it is possible to sacifice quality for dollars. The MAJORITY of the schools I have visited over the years icluding the "hardcore". All look like crap. From any standpoint, whether they were tournament competitors, full contact, or tai chi. The majority of the schools (80-90%) are not up to par. In my opinion.

    Either the quality of teaching wasn't there, or the quality of technique. As a matter of fact, half the links that pop up on this website fall into that category. It is a double edged sword of quality versus staying open, unless you realize these key things.

    1) Not everyone thinks like you
    2) Not everyone wants the same thing out of their training
    3) What is a good martial art or martial artist is way too subjective
    Whoa, wait a minute. You are willing to make allowances for different kinds of MA schools catering to different clientel, yet 80% to 90% of them still looked like crap? I can understand Matt Hughes going into a wushu school and thinking it looksl like crap, and a wushu guy doing the same in Matt Hughes' school ... but you are this open-minded and you still think virtually everything is crap? I'm impressed, you must really have something special going on there.

    I'm just picturing someone like Mas Oyama running through this thought process:

    "Hmmm, I have to understand that everyone doesn't think like me. Not everyone wants the same thing out training that I do. What is a good martial artist anyway, who am I to say? Maybe I'll just cancel out the 5 mile run to the beach to smash open oyster shells with our fingers and just have us go do a board breaking demonstration for the Brownies. Yeah, that's it! That'll get me a whole bunch of new students."

    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    The fact that this person is one of the most successful school owners in his area speaks volumes. If you have a crap product or service word gets out. Apparently it has for him and people like what they are buying (Even without his credentials being listed).
    What the people at PMA don't tell you is that these Ponzi schemes do not last forever. There was a guy in the 1970s, Jerome Mackey, who owned a huge chain of karate schools. They were everywhere. IIRC, one day he got mugged, he became an office joke, his warrior credentials were examined more closely, and the whole franchise essentially disappeared within a year.

    Fred Villari was a huge name in the early 1990s. And there are probably dozens more examples.

    They bleed a market dry, charge insane prices for a crap product, disillusion people about martial arts study, and bascially kill the market for anyone else who wants to try something legit.

    Just because more people buy Britney Spears albums than Beethoven's, doesn't mean she's a better musician. It just means she's better at sucking money out of people who don't know anything about music.

    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    I took my credentials off my website a year and a half ago. I get more calls without them listed. BTW- when you leave the field blank on my website it automatically fills in the text about coming soon
    Your credentials look fine. Just make sure they're not inflated. Our Google-Fu here is strong.

    For instance, you mentioned a few judo championships, but when I half-heartedly Googled your name and "judo," the only thing I got was a guy who may have been you, who field tested a Sega Genesis judo video game.

    Be aware this forum just de-panted a guy in Texas for claiming his instructors included all kinds of legends, when in fact it turned out he just attended seminars they conducted. Throwing up pictures of people like Dan Inosanto with you on your webpage does not help, unless you can confirm you studied with him. Otherwise you're creating a false impression.

    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    I care more about quality in the martial arts industry, probably more than anyone here.
    A bold statement. Forgive me if I have my doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    We are at a standstill without a standard. There will never be a universal standard, and I along many others will continue to positively affect the martial arts community by at least trying to set a standard.
    We're not at a standstill, and the standard setting issue is a derailment tactic you like to keep throwing out. The issue comes back to these things:

    *The guy has no credentials or qualifications cited on his webpage.
    *The guy is infatuated with money and his business and the martial arts appears to just be a scam he employed to get rich.
    *The guy adverstises for instructors with "no experience necessary".

    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    You posted my testimonial- I will try to post the whole thing. They left out the part about about me living in my school, and taking every crap job available to keep the school open. I moved to OKC from Dallas to get away from a highly dysfunctional family. I didn't know anyone, and barely having a high school education. I worked my tail off to get to where I am at. I am thankful to PMA for the opportunity to get an education in running and managing a successful school. I am very proud of where I am today. I didn't have to sell out. Twelve years ago I was teaching in a backroom of a church, I know own one the largest all martial arts facilities in the country( 17,000 square feet). I welcome you to come and be a part of what we do. I am very proud of my students and my staff who teaches them. If making money doing what you love is wrong- then call Oprah, I'm sure she would love to hear about it.
    And you've just taken another step into McDojo tactics. "Look at what martial arts has done for me. Its turned my life around. Never mind that I can't pick one foot up off the floor without tripping over my huge gut."

    The next step is, "Don't criticize me or my school. I'm teaching for Christ."

    Seen it all before. If Dale Carnegie became rich teaching martial arts, it wouldn't have meant he was either qualified or even good at it. He was just good at making money. So the "rags to riches" argument falls flat.

    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    If making money doing what you love is wrong- then call Oprah, I'm sure she would love to hear about it.
    I've met a few women who REALLY love having sex. I'd have no problem telling them that making money doing what they love is wrong.

    BTW: You're the first martial artist I've heard of being inspired by Oprah Winfrey.


    Quote Originally Posted by buu
    One more point- If I were a non-martial artist visiting this site: I would think all schools and instructors suck. Why? Because they all have been attacked. This website seems to be forum for martiial artists to trash talk easch other, nothing more.
    No, they have not "all" been attacked. Let me tell you something though, you're getting a kid glove treatment here, probably because Omega gave a half-hearted endorsement to the PMA earlier in the thread. And when he talks there tends to be a reaction like

    :bowdown:

    I didn't mean to make this about you... or about me for that matter. But you turned it that way. I just wanted to point out an embarassment of an instructor that is flying the PMA flag alongside of you.
    Last edited by emboesso; 9/30/2006 12:26pm at .
      #79
  10. buu is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 9:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow! You spent a long time on that last post.

    You've come a long way from your "I'm running a business here" attitude.
    My attitude hasn't changed. I still run a great business and offer a great service.

    Whoa, wait a minute. You are willing to make allowances for different kinds of MA schools catering to different clientel, yet 80% to 90% of them still looked like crap? I can understand Matt Hughes going into a wushu school and thinking it looksl like crap, and a wushu guy doing the same in Matt Hughes' school ... but you are this open-minded and you still think virtually everything is crap? I'm impressed, you must really have something special going on there.

    I'm just picturing someone like Mas Oyama running through this thought process:

    "Hmmm, I have to understand that everyone doesn't think like me. Not everyone wants the same thing out training that I do. What is a good martial artist anyway, who am I to say? Maybe I'll just cancel out the 5 mile run to the beach to smash open oyster shells with our fingers and just have us go do a board breaking demonstration for the Brownies. Yeah, that's it! That'll get me a whole bunch of new students."
    You made my point for me. I am sure with your line of thinking, Matt Hughs would also laugh at Mas Oyamas. Almost all would agree being a great fighter, forms practitioner, grappler, or what ever it is you study doesn't automatically make you a good teacher. That is the 80-90% figure I come up with. Most fall into the crappy teaching category. I have trained with some of the best in the world, and can honestly say most were horrible teahers. It is extremely rare to find someone highly skilled in both teaching and "performing"


    What the people at PMA don't tell you is that these Ponzi schemes do not last forever. There was a guy in the 1970s, Jerome Mackey, who owned a huge chain of karate schools. They were everywhere. IIRC, one day he got mugged, he became an office joke, his warrior credentials were examined more closely, and the whole franchise essentially disappeared within a year.

    Fred Villari was a huge name in the early 1990s. And there are probably dozens more examples.

    They bleed a market dry, charge insane prices for a crap product, disillusion people about martial arts study, and bascially kill the market for anyone else who wants to try something legit.

    Just because more people buy Britney Spears albums than Beethoven's, doesn't mean she's a better musician. It just means she's better at sucking money out of people who don't know anything about music.
    Apparently they don't have to tell you- It seems to be common knowledge to anyone willing to do their homework. Who is behind PMA? Who are the owners of other PMA schools? Why haven't their credentials been listed? You misrepresent a business article, a training college ad, and an employment ad. Sounds like a witch hunt.


    Your credentials look fine. Just make sure they're not inflated. Our Google-Fu here is strong.

    For instance, you mentioned a few judo championships, but when I half-heartedly Googled your name and "judo," the only thing I got was a guy who may have been you, who field tested a Sega Genesis judo video game.

    Be aware this forum just de-panted a guy in Texas for claiming his instructors included all kinds of legends, when in fact it turned out he just attended seminars they conducted. Throwing up pictures of people like Dan Inosanto with you on your webpage does not help, unless you can confirm you studied with him. Otherwise you're creating a false impression.
    I have nothing to hide. If you google me- it will also pull up my cousins Omar and Mike Epps:5slick:


    We're not at a standstill, and the standard setting issue is a derailment tactic you like to keep throwing out. The issue comes back to these things:

    *The guy has no credentials or qualifications cited on his webpage.
    *The guy is infatuated with money and his business and the martial arts appears to just be a scam he employed to get rich.
    *The guy adverstises for instructors with "no experience necessary".
    Again- I know a lot of people who do not list their credentials- including myself!
    Infatuated? You again, you have taken a business article totally out of context.
    Instructors with no experience can mean a lot of things. Most of them aren't bad.


    And you've just taken another step into McDojo tactics. "Look at what martial arts has done for me. Its turned my life around. Never mind that I can't pick one foot up off the floor without tripping over my huge gut."

    The next step is, "Don't criticize me or my school. I'm teaching for Christ."

    Seen it all before. If Dale Carnegie became rich teaching martial arts, it wouldn't have meant he was either qualified or even good at it. He was just good at making money. So the "rags to riches" argument falls flat.
    Nice try, but you guys are the one who brought up my rags to riches story. I never mentioned it. The fact is I worked and continue to work very hard at both my business and training. I am unclear where you get the rags to riches "arguement"- I never presented one.

    I am very proud of what my team has accomplished. I am willing to help anyone do what I have done. I have never coward from criticism. Criticism is how we get better. I have been very open and honest about my school and experience/involvement in PMA. Anyone and everyone has an open invitation to come visit and train at my school. We have always had an open door policy. We have nothing to hide and much to gain.


    I've met a few women who REALLY love having sex. I'd have no problem telling them that making money doing what they love is wrong.
    That is a horrible example. I agree with your moral opinion- but, many (especially in Nevada) disagree.

    BTW: You're the first martial artist I've heard of being inspired by Oprah Winfrey.
    Actually, I am inspired by her story and what she has accomplished. I am not a huge fan of the show, but none the less her biography is remarkable.


    didn't mean to make this about you... or about me for that matter. But you turned it that way.

    you're getting a kid glove treatment here, probably because Omega gave a half-hearted endorsement to the PMA earlier in the thread.
    You did mean to make this about me. I have simply tried to understand what "real" concerns you had about PMA- and this particular instructor. I give my two cents and you attacked me as well.

    My school, my credentials, all stand on their own. I am not sure who Omega is (I am still new to this forum), I appreciate his endorsement for PMA. But, in regards to myself, and my school- Why would I need to be treated with kid gloves? That sounds like a threat.
    Is it? Please explain what that means. If I am misunderstanding that comment- I apologize- I don't do well with bully tactics.

    I just wanted to point out an embarassment of an instructor that is flying the PMA flag alongside of you.
    That has yet to be determined, but thanks for your concern.

    Respectfully,

    J. Epps

    12th dan purple belt in Sudoku
    7x World Tae Bo Champion
    2 x National TKD forms champion (yellow belt division)
      #80
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