Technically and linguistically speaking, correct.
Practicaly and historically speaking, almost completely wrong.
I'm not sure I buy the idea of an unbroken lineage going from Jingwu to PRC sanda. Omar, d'you have any references?
Originally Posted by Shirak
This is true to a certain extent.
In the USA now, san shou has been taken over by a kickboxing body where it used to be run by the national (I forget the name) WuShu body. This is greatly benefiting san shou in the US.
Sadly in the UK san shou is run (now almost exclusively) by a joke body called the British Council for Chinese Martial Arts (BCCMA) and before you fight, you have to prove that you come from a Chinese style! I will not go into detail about my hatred for the BCCMA and how crap and corrupt they are as I have done so at great length else where.
As for the history of san shou and what styles are used, and indeed if they are using thai boxing, well san shou is a format rather than a 'style.' As such anyone can take part.
It is not a direct evolution of Kung Fu as such. There was no, 'Well, we will take a bit of long fist for punching and the blocks from wing chun....some mongolian wrestling for throws and call it san shou."
Its just a case of if you use a high guard (because this is full contact) and punch a heavy bag and wear gloves you are fundamentally boxing and it will look like boxing. If you kick a heavy bag it will look less snappy and more thai, no matter where it originated from (I could point out that kung fu had round kicks while the Thai aborigines were still grubbing for worms but that would be a cheap shot).
This is San Shou as it stands today. Now to totally go back on what I said. I believe that when San Shou was first conceived, it was a military art. The military decided that Kung Fu didn't work/took to long to learn and so put together the original san shou format. They (I vaguely recall reading) used Kung Fu teachers to do this so if you dig into the past you may find actual styles that went into the 'fist' san shou, but that has little to do with the san shou of today!
Omar makes senses. When my Baji instructor refers to actual sparring, even if we are talking about sparring with Baji, he still calls it Sanda.
So linquistically Shirak would be correct.
So is the style that Cung Le does called San Da or San Shou?
Originally Posted by eyebeams
There is nothing in the summary of the history I posted that is even vagueoy controversial. The same information is repeated in countless MA history books, the records are there in various almanacs if you were up to doing the footwork to dig it up. I have grainy old photo's of the schools and various teachers. I have seen pics of newspaper anouncements of the contests. My teachers teacher was a vice-principle at the Nanjing school. The entire thing is WELL recorded. Unlike some "legends of old", this thing was a govt. supported endeavor and had a national curriculum. There are few things in the entire MA world better documented than the history I put up there.
Feel free to cross check my info with someone like Coach Ross over at KFO or maybe John Wang at emptyflower or any other authority you can think of. It's not really debateable.
There is a movie called Xanda about a wushu guy being trashed by a sanshou guy and eventually he changes over to sanshou, through alot of hard work. I think there is some history about sanshou inside. Anybody caught this movie before?
Originally Posted by Shawarma
They both mean the same thing and are interchangeable.
People tend to use San Da when elbows and knees are used
Cung Le calls it SanShou, but it is basically the same thing. I have heard that the difference is in SanDa they allow knees. Could someone with a better understanding clarify this please?
What Liokault said.
On the mainland they call it Sanda because there is a big national organization which acts as the sanctioning body for PRC events and they call it "Sanda" so everyone else on the mainland now knows it as "Sanda". Outside of China it just depends on peoples linguitic habits just like some people say "kung fu" others say "gongfu" and still others call the exact same thing "wushu" or even "kuoshu" or "guoshu".
"Sanshou" and "Sanda" both are just Chinese words that mean "free fighting" but with the advent of a government sponsored competitive circuit it has evolved into its own martial art just like MMA did more recently except with less variety in fighting styles.
Oh and what Cung Lee does is not exactly the same as PRC Sanda. I don't know what he's doing currently but what he made his name on was leitai matches. That's on a raised stage where you get extra points for pushing/knocking someone off the stage. More than any other kick, punch or throw. The PRC Sanda is in a ring just like a boxing ring, no knees, lots of throws, many of them high amplitude. Leg kicks are allowed but not heavily favored from what I have seen. The rules may have changed since last I saw. The different terms do not define different rulesets. Different organizations have different rulesets and they use whichever name they happen to prefer with no particular rhyme or reason to it.
Last edited by Omar; 2/14/2006 10:56am at .