Posted On:2/13/2006 4:41pm
Style: Bits and pieces
Posted On:2/13/2006 6:02pm
Style: creonte on hiatus
Originally Posted by riceavenger
Actually, Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie also states that much of judo groundwork comes from Fusen Ryu jiu-jitsu. Apparently judo orignall did not have ANY groundwork, but after a challenge match between the Kodokan and Fusen ryu (which resulted in Kodokan being completely defeated) Kano asked the grandmaster of Fusen ryu to teach groundwork to judokas.
I don't have the book with me in my dorm, so if anyone who does wants to put up a more detailed sypnosis then please do so.
I have that book, and indeed it states Fusen Ryu Jiu-Jitsu as the origin of Judo Newaza (and therefore BJJ's ground techniques.)
Though there is always a chance that maybe, maybe Renzo is wrong regarding the origins of Judo Newaza/BJJ ground techniques, what are the odds of that? Besides, wikipedia may be full of **** in some articles, but as mentioned in a Dec 2005 BBC article, overall, Wikipedia is as accurate (at least on science) as the Encyclopedia Britannica. And regarding Judo, BJJ and Fusen Ryu Jiu-Jitsu, Wikipedia pretty much says the same thing Renzo says in his book.
I read 'Best Judo' long ago, and don't remember exactly what it says about the evolution of Newaza. Would be interesting to hear the in-house Judo walking libraries (MONGO, dakotajudo) talking about this.
Last but not list, a bit off-topic, but not quite so (gasp! a paradox)... check this article regarding BJJ and Judo before you step into one of those braindead 'BJJ vs Judo' threads : http://www.bestjudo.com/article6.shtml
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The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
Posted On:2/13/2006 6:54pm
someone on the battlefield wearing full armor...
this always cracks me up!!! does anyone really believe that japan was always one big battlefield, and everyone always wore full armor??? come on there would have been plenty of non battlefield 'bar fights' to use typical jujitsu ground work... and don't forget wrasslin geisha's into submission... and of course they would have to defend against the deadly ninjer crappling... :new_llyin
Last edited by AikiZenDragon; 2/13/2006 6:57pm at .
Posted On:2/13/2006 7:01pm
Okay. Just recognize that JJ in its purest form was not simple hand to hand. It encompassed many forms of martial art. And its primary emphasis was for the battlefield. There was little honor to be gained wrestling with geishas. The gradual transformation of JJ into its sportive forms are an interesting study. Nobody really knows the truth - there are just a lot of perspectives and interpretations on the subject.
Injury Waiting To Happen
Posted On:2/13/2006 7:16pm
Style: Snatch Wrestling
I'd like to insert my mandatory Puroresu troll at this time:
Maeda was a Catch Wrestler, as well as Judo and JJJ practitioner, wait, that's not trollish enough, here we go:
Helio modified the limited Catch Wrestling he learned from Maeda into the inferior, baseless, butt-scooting art known today as BJJ.
Posted On:2/13/2006 7:17pm
although it certainly included the battlefield, i don't know if 'primary' applies as 'most' of the time would possibly not be on the battlefield, but in non battlefield situation... i posit they would have been versed in all ranges and environments...
Posted On:2/13/2006 8:00pm
Judo has Jujutsu/ wrestling influences. Much of the pins are from wrestling or have a wrestling influence.
What I have learned is that there was jujutsu challenges back in the day, between Fusen Ryu and Kodokan Judo when it was just getting established. The Fusen ryu guys pulled "guard" and the Judoka had no idea how to deal with it.
So being that the guys that established the techniques of Judo back in the day were into adapting, they picked up ground fighting to prevent future loosing to Fusen Ryu guys. Now, I have never learned that Fusen Ryu is where the newaza came from, but I have heard that it helped add emphasis to it.
Dakodokan has a much larger Judo library than I do and he is probably more up on the history.
And not every jujutsu school was centered around armour. There was lots of instances that soldiers had little to no armour or the jujutsu school was designed for other reasons than the battlefield (Law enforcement/ heiho jutsu) and stuff like that.
Posted On:2/14/2006 9:06am
rightly put Mongo...
Posted On:2/26/2006 11:54am
Sorry I've let this sit so long - I was asked to chime in, but have been spending time on other projects; that includes getting notes in order from various comments I've made over the last few years.
And some of those notes pertain to this topic.
So, some notes.
First data point is the Katame-no-kata - the formal list of ne-waza used for teaching at the Kodokan. It was formalized in the mid 1880's and includes many of the finishing holds found today in both judo and BJJ - including figure-four lock, straight arm lock, collar chokes and the major hold-downs.
One thing to note - this kata complements the Nage-no-kata - a set of 15 throws used for teaching. At the time, the Kodokan listed 40 formal (named) throws - so I would surmise that the Kodokan also taught a larger set of ne-waza than contained in Katame - but I have no hard evidence of what that set may be.
The entries to waza are much more formal than what you would see being taught in most judo classes; tori starts from a high kneel (that probably comes from Tenshin-Shinyo Ryu) and applies techniques, for the most part, to a lying uke (a couple chokes, uke is seated). The kata doesn't, except in one case, show transitions from standing to ground. (But that one transition is important, as I'll come to later).
So we can know, from the kata, what ground finishing holds were formally taught at the Kodokan, in the early days. But I don't have any evidence as to how these techniques were applied in randori. I would note that the Katame-no-kata predates the Fusen ryu connection by about 15 years. I find it hard to believe that during that time no one in the Kodokan hit upon the idea of going directly into ne-waza from standing, but I have no evidence, one way or the other.
Another kata, Kime-no-kata, includes some transitions from kneeling to holds, and kneeling and standing locks and chokes. That kata was formalized in the late 1880's. The point of this is that the Kodokan curriculum contained more than just throws.
So it's probably not accurate to say that Tanabe of the Fusen introduced the concept of ground fighting to the Kodokan, but he may have been of higher proficiency than most of Kano's boys. Kano wasn't above inviting experts to teach at the Kodokan; I suspect this is another example of Kano recruiting from the best to teach at his school.
Now, about the connection between Fusen and KOSEN.
Going directly from standing to ne-waza isn't the same as "pulling guard" - there are many strategies for the transition from tachi to ne. And that's where the one exception in Katame-no-kata is important.
The only formal leg-lock in the Kodokan curriculum is in Katame-no-kata. Tori attempts tomoe-nage. Uke jams the throw and steps forward; tori counters by entangling the forward leg into ashi-garami.
KOSEN videos I've seen remind me of this entry. In many examples, tori enters as if into sumi-gaeshi or tomoe-nage, keeps tension on uke (pushing with the leg, pulling the arm, then uses some flip or other to get uke on the ground, generally on his back.
There seem to be few examples of fighting the guard.
Given this, I'm inclined to suspect KOSEN styles comes from traditional Kodokan teaching, not anything unique to Tanabe. That, and KOSEN and BJJ, aside from both coming from Kodokan roots, are really different beasts. You get people experimenting with similar finishing holds, there will be some similarities; you've got to look more carefully for the distinctive traits.
So, what did Helio change?
A couple clips:
Helio, in these, is fighting a pretty typical judo style for the era - going right into kumi-kata with no grip fighting, small shuffling movements, he even attacks with ko-ashi-waza - a hallmark of Kodokan judo. Find clips of judo from the 50's and 60's, you'll see little difference.
Compare those clips to how both judo and BJJ of today, you'll see both have evolved considerably. I would suspect the evolution came about by the same means - the expansion of both styles in international competition and the influx of new competitors with new ideas and different backgrounds (consider how much the Russians changed modern judo competition).
In the second clip I find the quote "that as a small man he saw it fit to make modifications" amusing - Gracie is quite a bit taller than his opponent.
A bit about the osae of the Kodokan. It is true that the osae taught in Katame-no-kata is face-up - but the Kime-no-kata includes a face-down pin (and a couple hints on why other osae were performed face-up).
However, there is a distinction to be made between the two primary root arts of the Kodokan.
One style, the Kito ryu, can only be seen directly in the Koshiki-no-kata. This kata is all throws. Many of the throws would not be shiai legal - uke is to be dropped, on his back or neck, on tori's knee, or tori is thrown by twisting the neck.
The Kito ryu originates near the end of the Sengoku era, about the end of the warring states period. Japan was entering a time of peace, and the older warrior styles were not needed.
The other primary root, Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, originated much later, and is primarily a personal-protection style (I don't say self-defense, there are some features that suggest it was also used for body-guard and police-type work).
Though I've found some contradictory evidence, most notes I have suggest that the majority of Kodokan submission holds come from the Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. So, what comes to us from the Kodokan is not primarily battlefield jujutsu.
Posted On:2/26/2006 12:43pm
Nice post DakotaJudo. That's the type of posts I look forward the most.
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