What, if any, modifications did Helio Gracie make?

**Thaiboxerken** · Posted On: 2/11/2006 4:44pm

While the Classical vs Submission article was interesting to read, I think it's bullshit.

**Virus** · Posted On: 2/11/2006 6:08pm

ano has said in much of his writings that most of the newaza of Kodokan Judo came from Western wrestling and/or invented by him.

I thought they came from Fusen Ryu Jujitsu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusen-Ryu_Jujutsu

**Virus** · Posted On: 2/11/2006 6:28pm

Originally Posted by TheSparrow

Ha, this is where my non existent knowledge of JJJ shows up. Is there really no closed guard in JJJ? I am shocked.

I remember Shinbushi saying that the open and closed guard are found in the
Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu.

**Odacon** · Posted On: 2/11/2006 6:37pm

I taught it was the training practices, not the techniques that were changed, just like Kano did when he created Judo.

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 2/11/2006 6:48pm

Originally Posted by odacon

I taught it was the training practices, not the techniques that were changed, just like Kano did when he created Judo.

At first maybe, but the training practices gave rise to new techniques, or at least new variations/setups/combos on old techniques.

**MuKen** · Posted On: 2/11/2006 7:22pm

I've been told that classical ju-jutsu didn't place as much emphasis on positional dominance, and thus a lot of the sweeps, passes, and escapes were new additions.

**Odacon** · Posted On: 2/11/2006 8:11pm

It's interesting to chart the evolution of jujitsu from JJJ to Judo to BJJ. No other arts seem to have gone through such a process, why?

**jwinch2** · Posted On: 2/12/2006 4:51pm

Originally Posted by Virus

I thought they came from Fusen Ryu Jujitsu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusen-Ryu_Jujutsu

Wikipedia is full of crap 8 times out of 10. That's what you get when anyone can modify a topic. Read Canon of Judo or Best Judo. The evolution of Judo's newaza is discussed in both of those books.

**riceavenger** · Posted On: 2/12/2006 5:09pm

Actually, Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie also states that much of judo groundwork comes from Fusen Ryu jiu-jitsu. Apparently judo orignall did not have ANY groundwork, but after a challenge match between the Kodokan and Fusen ryu (which resulted in Kodokan being completely defeated) Kano asked the grandmaster of Fusen ryu to teach groundwork to judokas.

I don't have the book with me in my dorm, so if anyone who does wants to put up a more detailed sypnosis then please do so.