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  1. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:14pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What, if any, modifications did Helio Gracie make?

    I always hear that Helio realised a lot of JJJ techniques relied too much on strength, and that as a small man he saw it fit to make modifications to improve the said techniques.

    Now, not knowing much about Japanese Ju Jitsu, I'd like to know if anyone can give an example of what he changed?

    Or is it just bullshit that was put into the story to promote Gracie Jiu Jitsu?
  2. Butterfly guard is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:18pm


     Style: jiu jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    closed guard?
  3. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:20pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly guard
    closed guard?
    Ha, this is where my non existent knowledge of JJJ shows up. Is there really no closed guard in JJJ? I am shocked.
  4. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:26pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rubber Guard.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  5. jwinch2 is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:28pm


     Style: Pekiti Tirsia Kali

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    This topic was discussed recently on another thread. This point was made by someone and I thought they did a very good job of doing so. It certainly cleared things up for me quite a bit. Enjoy!



    While kansetsu waza (joint locking techniques) and shime waza (strangulation techniques) have been an integral part of classical Jujutsu, the idea that Osae waza (pinning/holding techniques), at least in a Judo context existed is simply wrong. Kano has said in much of his writings that most of the newaza of Kodokan Judo came from Western wrestling and/or invented by him. Remember, the battlefield of ancient Japan was a massive melee fight in which many folks were running around with swords and other sharp pointy things trying to kill each other. They were not going for submissions or for the other person to run away with a bloody nose, they were trying to kill each other. Instead osae waza of classical Jujutsu was designed to hold the person in place long enough to use your own weapon and dispatch your opponent while remaining in a less vulnerable upright posture alert and ready to deal with other warriors on the battlefield (zanshin).

    So the notion that someone on the battlefield wearing full armor would lay on top of someones face using Kami shihogatame and smother them in the heat of battle is one of the most absurb things I have read in months. I mean think about it. The helmet that is likely being worn has a brim at the front that extends out in front of the face by several inches. At the back, you have the sloped rear of helmet that partially or completely covers the neck. It also extends out from the head by several inches. Now press someones head who is wearing this type of helmet to the ground, and you cause the helmet to shift on the head by several inches making the separation between the edge of the visor and the face many more inches. Now let's get to the guy doing the "smothering" technique. He is wearing armor on the torso that would include a hard breastplate, and semi-flexible plated armor (which run vertically in plates) below that. Now, how do you suppose that the guy on top is suppose to get a clean seal over the mouth and nose of someone on the bottom when the brim of the visor sticks out probably six inches or so, and he is trying to lay an inflexible sheet of armor on top of his face? Probably not real likely that this armor is going to deform sufficiently enough over the extended front of the helmet to allow them to cover the mouth and nose. So let's assume that he manages to get an adequate seal over his opponents mouth and nose. How long do you think he will need to lay there and wait for the other guy to sufficate? Many folks can easily hold their breath for 4 or more minutes. In the heat of battle with the heart pumping hard, maybe two minutes. That is a LONG time to be laying prone on the ground when there are others on the battlefield with swords and other sharp pointy instruments. No warrior in his right mind would lay there in a vulnerable position like that waiting for the other guy to sufficate. It is pretty likely that he would find himself run through by some Ashiguru (the lowest ranked foot soldier armed with a spear) or some other samurai would lop off his head. Contrary to the romanticised nonsense that many think of the samurai, they would not have waited until the guy got back to his feet and announced his ancestory and ryuha lineage. Instead, he would have cut apart as he laid there.

    The reason that you find newaza being taught today in modern and semi modern Jujutsu systems is really quite simple. First, many of the instructors that teach these systems of Jujutsu have a background in Kodokan Judo. Second, much of what is called Jujutsu today does not derive from classical Jujutsu, but is instead modified versions of Kodokan Goshin Jutsu (which is basically Jujutsu techniques for the Judoka that were developed within the context of civilian self-defense and not battlefield fighting) and third, the popularity of Brazillian Jujutsu has lead many instructors to incorporate Kodokan Judo newaza into their curriculum to satisfy the market of students who are looking for and expecting this part of Jujutsu in their training.
    Last edited by jwinch2; 2/11/2006 5:37pm at .
  6. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Focus on the guard.
  7. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:32pm

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     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He didn't modify JJJ.
  8. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:34pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    He didn't modify JJJ.
    Judo then?
  9. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:38pm

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     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, Judo. I don't think he really modified much, just changed the focus of training from throwing to ground fighting. Also, these guys are constantly "modifying" tactics and techniques as they need. This is unlike many "traditional" systems.
  10. Gypsy Jazz is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 5:38pm


     Style: Does exercise count?

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I read this http://www.grapplearts.com/Submissio...s-ju-jutsu.htm a while back and thought it was pretty cool. I don't know how much this applies to the jiu-jitsu Helio was being taught, but it's at very least a comparrison between the modern and the classical.
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