2/15/2006 4:28pm, #81Originally Posted by Lefty
Also I never said I do "teh real" anything just that I am trying to spar it realistically. I mean if people didn't roll on the mat would you say they do the real BJJ? Ofcourse not.
So yeah its silly to claim knowledge outside of one's restrictive sphere especially if what you do is the 99% of crap slap _ing __un one sees paraded on the internet - usually by the VT uber organisation.
Do you assert to do the real BJJ and criticise others who do not spar but learn BJJ from videos? If so, you are exactly the same as any other MA sceptic out there like myself.
Why should I say that a TMA is real if they never spar REAListically? That is my point. Therefore if the definition of "real WC" is that one spars realistically in it - then I include myself and anyone else who takes this approach. I dont claim to be some secret master with all the goodies - just that resistant sparring develops the ability to apply WC and that WC needs to be developed in conjunction with a wider knowledge of CMA and other arts.
So they take it and change it and you dont care how it ends up being represented. Its all valid to you.
BJJ has competition at its core. WC should have a safe format of competition too IMO. The competition help to weed out bullshit artists. Soon BJJ will have more video graded blackbelts than any other style. The videos are already being sold to crappy little MA schools around the world. A local place here teaches basic WC and BJJ and they are crap and dont spar at all- its a highly priced RBSD place that teaches anti-gun defenses ffs.
Helio insults your crap variants of BJJ you have absorbed at great cash dollar expense (see links).
Oh who's the fucking expert who comdemns the whole WC world except for your one master? So you yourself are claiming "teh real WC" and just wanted to stomp on someone elses views who is seeking to train realistically. You disgust me AND Helio.
Furthermore, I'll repeat it one more time so it gets through your cyber earwax, I have no qualms against resistance testing. It is the creed of Bullshido, and I have come to embrace it like most people. But to use it as a basis to say "I have teh real wing chun" like you did is garbage.
2/15/2006 5:35pm, #82
"As for why there's not too many decent WC practitioners in MMA tournaments - You create a MMA format that doesn't take away 90% of a WC practitioner's weapons (eyes, throat, groin, spine strikes etc) "
Dude... bullshit. How do you expect to be able to hit someone in the eye with a biu tze if you can't even punch them in the jaw with a straight punch? And why on earth would *anyone* want to rely on doing that sort of thing? Do you really want to be thinking "okay, i can either not fight, or I can blind this guy" (that's assuming you really can pull it off)
And NINETY freaking percent? What kind of _ing _un did you do? I pretty much *never* train the illegal strikes (illegal in terms of competition) altho I do know them.
There is absolutely no good reason why you can't use WC in MMA competition. The open-handed gloves actually lend themselves more to WC because of its more intricate techniques - and i'm not talking about ludicrous 3-step traps. You know what a Jut Sau is? Jerking Arm? Boxer throws a jab. Pak (slap/parry) it, then jerk it down and fill the gap with a straight punch from your other hand at the same time. Which part of that is illegal in MMA?
And you know what? It's the same as it is with grappling, if you have to really **** someone up to beat them, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. You always know someone's only slightly better than their opponent if they have to slam on an armbar or a choke. If you're really better than them, you should be able to actually *tell* them what you're going to do and they won't be able to stop it. Same thing with striking (altho you can't tell them obviously) - you should not have to blind/cripple/kill/whatever your opponent to beat them. And again, I firmly agree with Matt Thornton's beliefs on training non-dangerous techniques to full contact being far more effective than learning deadly techniques and never being able ot practise them.
2/15/2006 5:39pm, #83
2/15/2006 6:08pm, #84
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Lets not get hung up on the 'real WC' argument. The fact is that most WC is crap, but there's no reason to say that it couldn't work well if the training methods incorporated full contact sparring and an element of competition. **** full contact sparring would be enough to increase the quality of most WC fighters.
Then I can imagine that the people who don't do full contact fighting would argue that those that don't aren't doing the real WC, and the people who are doing full contact WC would say the same.
As you guys said: its better to train full-contact safe movements than 't3h d34dly' strikes in the air... after all once you've got very good skills gained from safer movements you can then slightly modify these to bring in t3h d34dly aspects... e.g. extend your fingers when throwing a jab to the face for your bil jee.
2/15/2006 6:17pm, #85
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You make a lot of sense. This should be a standard answer to all "my _ing _un is ueber-deadly" arguments. Your last point (citing Matt Thornton) is like it was straight from Jigoro Kano's Kodokan Judo.
Originally Posted by Das MooseCurrent stage of death: denial
2/15/2006 6:20pm, #86
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I agree. I don't see why so many WC guys think WC techniques can't be used for MMA competitions. There is no reason why it cannot be. The problem with Wing Chun fighters in MMA is a general lack of cross training particularly in grappling. And in some cases, lack of conditioning.
Rather than realize this inherent chink in the armor like some other arts (TSK comes to mind) and address it, WC guys instead come up with theories like WC is not suited for MMA or ways to cope like the anti-grapple. And statements like the one that LT allegedly made.
2/15/2006 6:32pm, #87
2/15/2006 6:36pm, #88Originally Posted by benfscott
JJ beats WC is an oversimplification and a mischaracterization of what I think most people believe.
I believe you when you say that you grew up in a bad neighborhood with lots of crime. Many people do, and some of those people do indeed get into martial arts for self defense. However, it's significantly less likely that you saw a jujitsu man get stabbed while wondering why his drop seioi didn't automatically work. I call bullshit on your dramatic die-in-a-pool-of-blood-I've-seen-it-all-before-folks statement.
I grew up in New York City and lived in New Orleans as a grad student. I've been mugged or otherwise accosted on the str33t more than once. And yet, your whole dramatic "I-know-t3h-str33t" appeal just dosen't impress me. How many jujitsuists have you seen get stabbed to death in situations they could have avoided if only they'd known that techniques are fallible?
Very dramatic, but not really a true argument you're making.
I really have to take issue with this. I'm not trying to impress anybody. I really have no interest if someone across the other side of the planet that I've never met before doesn't believe what I've seen/done/experienced. I was just putting my opinions into the context of where I come from. South-East London (New Cross, Depford, Peckham, Brixton, Lewisham etc.) can be an extremely violent place - And a mugging here isn't 'give me your money or I'll stab you", it's "I'll stab you and then go through your pockets at my leisure".
As I said before, I believe you if you say that you grew up in a nasty place with a lot of crime. Many people live in such places. I don't doubt that you've lived in a high crime area, and seen crimes committed.
But, what I take issue with is your assertion that you've specifically seen someone die in a pool of blood because he was locked into technique-centric thinking. You're missing my point and instead getting defensive over your background, which I wasn't even doubting.
I am now a successful TV Producer and Director. I have travelled the world and I have made all manner of shows, from light entertainment to undercover investigative documentaries. If I wanted to impress someone, it really wouldn't be some anonymous person on the internet and it certainly wouldn't by telling them I come from a ****-hole or that I grew up by the old 'Den' - former home of Millwall Football Club (to the non Brits, look it up) . These days I have slightly better credentials than that and in truth, I think I'd rather people knew me for that side of my life but still...
I was perhaps being colourful in my use of the 'on the floor in a pool of blood' phrase, but for the record, yes I have actually seen a man die in front of me, on the floor, in a pool of blood, with a big frickin' knife sticking out of his heart in a local (Zsar Bar, Ladywell circa 2000 - now closed down!) bar/nightclub. However, I doubt there much much in the way of MA at all in that particular altercation. If this was a thread about the perils of dealing crack on a rival's turf, I might have brought it up previously.
Therefore, your assertions concerning technique-based thinking are unsupported.
So I'm sorry you call bullshit on me. I'm sorry you think I'm trying to impress folks on a MA forum (wtf?). I'm not. In truth I am embarrassed about that side of my life and outside of this forum (where I thought knowledge gained from 'real life' experience as opposed to training and teachings would be appreciated) I would never ever discuss any of this but it's my life and I can't change it. I have no idea who you are, but really, who are you to call bullshit on my life and what I've been through? Seriously, get fucked.
For the last time, I have never, at any point said that WC was the be-all and end-all of combative arts (it's not even my main style!). All I've done from my first post onwards is spoken from personal experience, while other people talk about purely hypothetical situations and spout cliche-ridden Bullshido forum mantra.
Is that even worth responding to? You're sure going off on a huge tangent claiming I disregarded your personal experiences, when I didn't even doubt your claims about growing up in a rough neighborhood.
I mean, this is becoming Phil Elmore-esque in it's length and distraction.
"However, it's significantly less likely that you saw a jujitsu man get stabbed while wondering why his drop seioi didn't automatically work. "
How is it less likely? How do you know? What's this magic ingredient that apparently all JJ students are imbued with the moment they first don a gi? Answer?
Of course, there are some who don't, and they might fall prey to the intellectual/technique trap.
There is none and you don't know, because you weren't there in the situations I spoke of.
You're not maintaining the same frame of reference (general statements about JJ students vs. specific statements about the guy you saw stabbed) and trying to use that to invalididate my responses.
A couple of people have actually tried to engage in proper conversation in this thread but personal digs and flippant comments about me, my life and my opinions are frankly rather childish and serve no purpose.
But, I haven't made personal digs about you, nor have I doubted your life story. I think you're imagining all these dimensions in a very defensive way.
Does that make me childish, or you childish?
I have no experience of sports fighting and so don't comment on it, but whether you believe me or not, I do know a little something about looking after myself, and I have learned that the hard way.
Thought I'd make a couple of comments so people might not have to go through what I did growing up and in my first couple of violent confrontations, but obviously I've failed.
Really, now I'm done. Have your rant. Slag me off. Whatever. Life's too short to waste time talking to people that have already made their minds up a long time ago. Have a nice day....
No one is slagging you off. You're imagining it.
If this is how you react when someone believes a lot of what you said, I'd hate to see what you do if someone questions something you've said during the undercover investigative documentaries you say you've produced. Do you bil gee them in the eyes?
PS: I stand corrected on the William Cheung vs. Emin Boztepe incident. I mixed up my names.Best Vietnam War music video I've ever seen put together by a vet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDY8raKsdfg
2/15/2006 7:27pm, #89Originally Posted by Das Moose
2/15/2006 8:26pm, #90
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Eternal Rage you denegrate the general standard of _ing __un you have seen. Yet respect it when people are able to make it work with realistic resistance. As do I.
I think its worth noting though that IMO most MA classes suck. It depends on the level of aliveness how good the group is in my view. ie. i dont like endless forms. It depends on the focus of the group.
Last edited by Lefty; 2/15/2006 8:32pm at .