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  1. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 4:28pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Wince out loud.
    Definition of wince: To shrink or start involuntarily, as in pain or distress; flinch.
    Therefore I make an involuntary noise when in the process of wincing at _ing __un as I view it on the internet.
    I'd label the auditory noise as a disgusted grunt.

    Also I never said I do "teh real" anything just that I am trying to spar it realistically. I mean if people didn't roll on the mat would you say they do the real BJJ? Ofcourse not.
    You like resistance training. Fine. That's great. But from your previous post you wrote this:
    So yeah its silly to claim knowledge outside of one's restrictive sphere especially if what you do is the 99% of crap slap _ing __un one sees paraded on the internet - usually by the VT uber organisation.
    You said 99% of _ing _un is crap. Now unless you are being self critical, you are implying that you are in the 1% that is doing it correctly. Hence, "real wing chun". I have no quarrel with your comments about sparring and resistance testing. I am arguing with that statement you made above.

    Do you assert to do the real BJJ and criticise others who do not spar but learn BJJ from videos? If so, you are exactly the same as any other MA sceptic out there like myself.

    Why should I say that a TMA is real if they never spar REAListically? That is my point. Therefore if the definition of "real WC" is that one spars realistically in it - then I include myself and anyone else who takes this approach. I dont claim to be some secret master with all the goodies - just that resistant sparring develops the ability to apply WC and that WC needs to be developed in conjunction with a wider knowledge of CMA and other arts.
    Like I said I don't argue with the fact that sparring and resistance testing are necessary. I argue with the fact that you said 99% of _ing _un doesn't do it, and that you are in the 1% that does. Also you seem to think that just because you spar with resistance that it gives you the "real wing chun", its a good step in the right direction, but theres more to it than just that.

    So they take it and change it and you dont care how it ends up being represented. Its all valid to you.
    As long as they pressure test it in competition and it's been shown to work, then yea then its fine. Eddie Bravo changed up alot of stuff with his BJJ, it worked for him, I learned some of it, works for me in rolling just fine. So yes, as long as they test it with resistance, no biggie.

    BJJ has competition at its core. WC should have a safe format of competition too IMO. The competition help to weed out bullshit artists. Soon BJJ will have more video graded blackbelts than any other style. The videos are already being sold to crappy little MA schools around the world. A local place here teaches basic WC and BJJ and they are crap and dont spar at all- its a highly priced RBSD place that teaches anti-gun defenses ffs.
    The only credible black belts are those who compete and are successful. They are listed on BJJ.org. Checking a BJJ Blackbelt's claims are not that hard, if they are truly blackbelts it is always documented somewhere in competition or on that site.

    Helio insults your crap variants of BJJ you have absorbed at great cash dollar expense (see links).
    Read his statements in context. He's talking about Gracie methods and the Gracie way of teaching. He's insulting all the people out there who are ripping the Gracie family name and affixing it to their own brand of BJJ. He says nothing about the quality of other BJJ out there, he is denouncing people who are wrongly taking their family name and endorsing their stuff with it. Nice try.

    Oh who's the fucking expert who comdemns the whole WC world except for your one master? So you yourself are claiming "teh real WC" and just wanted to stomp on someone elses views who is seeking to train realistically. You disgust me AND Helio.
    Aww someone got their cyberpanties all twisted up. Listen genius, where did I say that 99% of the _ing _un world was doing it wrong? Nope that was you. I'm sure theres a **** load of good _ing _un out there. I hear nice things about certain WSL branches. Das Moose's Chum Sut Wing Chun is supposed to be fantastic for MMA. I'll admit I should have written "I have little respect for the rest of the _ing _un world THAT I HAVE SEEN MYSELF," and sorry for the confusion. I don't have the real WC, in fact I quit because it wasn't working for me.

    Furthermore, I'll repeat it one more time so it gets through your cyber earwax, I have no qualms against resistance testing. It is the creed of Bullshido, and I have come to embrace it like most people. But to use it as a basis to say "I have teh real wing chun" like you did is garbage.
  2. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 5:35pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "As for why there's not too many decent WC practitioners in MMA tournaments - You create a MMA format that doesn't take away 90% of a WC practitioner's weapons (eyes, throat, groin, spine strikes etc) "

    Dude... bullshit. How do you expect to be able to hit someone in the eye with a biu tze if you can't even punch them in the jaw with a straight punch? And why on earth would *anyone* want to rely on doing that sort of thing? Do you really want to be thinking "okay, i can either not fight, or I can blind this guy" (that's assuming you really can pull it off)

    And NINETY freaking percent? What kind of _ing _un did you do? I pretty much *never* train the illegal strikes (illegal in terms of competition) altho I do know them.

    There is absolutely no good reason why you can't use WC in MMA competition. The open-handed gloves actually lend themselves more to WC because of its more intricate techniques - and i'm not talking about ludicrous 3-step traps. You know what a Jut Sau is? Jerking Arm? Boxer throws a jab. Pak (slap/parry) it, then jerk it down and fill the gap with a straight punch from your other hand at the same time. Which part of that is illegal in MMA?

    And you know what? It's the same as it is with grappling, if you have to really **** someone up to beat them, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. You always know someone's only slightly better than their opponent if they have to slam on an armbar or a choke. If you're really better than them, you should be able to actually *tell* them what you're going to do and they won't be able to stop it. Same thing with striking (altho you can't tell them obviously) - you should not have to blind/cripple/kill/whatever your opponent to beat them. And again, I firmly agree with Matt Thornton's beliefs on training non-dangerous techniques to full contact being far more effective than learning deadly techniques and never being able ot practise them.
  3. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 5:39pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please don't bring up Boztepe/Cheung.

    That's just unpleasant for all of us.
  4. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 6:08pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lets not get hung up on the 'real WC' argument. The fact is that most WC is crap, but there's no reason to say that it couldn't work well if the training methods incorporated full contact sparring and an element of competition. **** full contact sparring would be enough to increase the quality of most WC fighters.

    Then I can imagine that the people who don't do full contact fighting would argue that those that don't aren't doing the real WC, and the people who are doing full contact WC would say the same.
    :deadhorse

    As you guys said: its better to train full-contact safe movements than 't3h d34dly' strikes in the air... after all once you've got very good skills gained from safer movements you can then slightly modify these to bring in t3h d34dly aspects... e.g. extend your fingers when throwing a jab to the face for your bil jee.
  5. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 6:17pm


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You make a lot of sense. This should be a standard answer to all "my _ing _un is ueber-deadly" arguments. Your last point (citing Matt Thornton) is like it was straight from Jigoro Kano's Kodokan Judo.
    Good post.

    Tomas

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Moose
    "As for why there's not too many decent WC practitioners in MMA tournaments - You create a MMA format that doesn't take away 90% of a WC practitioner's weapons (eyes, throat, groin, spine strikes etc) "

    Dude... bullshit. How do you expect to be able to hit someone in the eye with a biu tze if you can't even punch them in the jaw with a straight punch? And why on earth would *anyone* want to rely on doing that sort of thing? Do you really want to be thinking "okay, i can either not fight, or I can blind this guy" (that's assuming you really can pull it off)

    And NINETY freaking percent? What kind of _ing _un did you do? I pretty much *never* train the illegal strikes (illegal in terms of competition) altho I do know them.

    There is absolutely no good reason why you can't use WC in MMA competition. The open-handed gloves actually lend themselves more to WC because of its more intricate techniques - and i'm not talking about ludicrous 3-step traps. You know what a Jut Sau is? Jerking Arm? Boxer throws a jab. Pak (slap/parry) it, then jerk it down and fill the gap with a straight punch from your other hand at the same time. Which part of that is illegal in MMA?

    And you know what? It's the same as it is with grappling, if you have to really **** someone up to beat them, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. You always know someone's only slightly better than their opponent if they have to slam on an armbar or a choke. If you're really better than them, you should be able to actually *tell* them what you're going to do and they won't be able to stop it. Same thing with striking (altho you can't tell them obviously) - you should not have to blind/cripple/kill/whatever your opponent to beat them. And again, I firmly agree with Matt Thornton's beliefs on training non-dangerous techniques to full contact being far more effective than learning deadly techniques and never being able ot practise them.
    Current stage of death: denial
  6. Firebrand is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 6:20pm


     Style: BJJ, Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree. I don't see why so many WC guys think WC techniques can't be used for MMA competitions. There is no reason why it cannot be. The problem with Wing Chun fighters in MMA is a general lack of cross training particularly in grappling. And in some cases, lack of conditioning.

    Rather than realize this inherent chink in the armor like some other arts (TSK comes to mind) and address it, WC guys instead come up with theories like WC is not suited for MMA or ways to cope like the anti-grapple. And statements like the one that LT allegedly made.
  7. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 6:32pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "You make a lot of sense."

    Why thank you. That's because i have the real WC ;)

    Hehe.
  8. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 6:36pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benfscott
    Funny you mention jujitsu, but not kung fu, in the context of putting too much faith into techniques alone.

    Not funny at all. It's a commonly held mentality on these forums that BJJ beats Wing Chun and that there is no room for argument. To me that is a ridiculous notion, as so much more has to be taken into account, not least the general randomness of fighting for 'real'. As I have mentioned before in this thread, there is NO INVINCIBLE TECHNIQUE from ANY style. I have a;so said I have probably seen more bad WC being taught than any other style, but I have also see it being taught brilliantly. It could quite easily have been the other way around for the point I was trying to make, but this is Bullshido - everyone DOES think JJ beats WC!

    If you read my previous posts you'll know my take is that one is not necessarily better than the other and that I feel the the tescher and the individual makes the fighter more than the style or technique, although that too IS a factor, obviously, just not the overriding one.
    Actually, I think it would be more correct to say, "In the vast majority of cases, if we took a random BJJ practitioner and a random WC practitioner and made them fight, the BJJ practitioner would probably win. This is because in most observed cases the WC practitioner lacks the tools to deal with a grappler, and furthermore WC unfortunately tends to attract more orientophile/overintellectual individuals who tend to have various mental obstacles to combat efficacy."

    JJ beats WC is an oversimplification and a mischaracterization of what I think most people believe.





    I believe you when you say that you grew up in a bad neighborhood with lots of crime. Many people do, and some of those people do indeed get into martial arts for self defense. However, it's significantly less likely that you saw a jujitsu man get stabbed while wondering why his drop seioi didn't automatically work. I call bullshit on your dramatic die-in-a-pool-of-blood-I've-seen-it-all-before-folks statement.

    I grew up in New York City and lived in New Orleans as a grad student. I've been mugged or otherwise accosted on the str33t more than once. And yet, your whole dramatic "I-know-t3h-str33t" appeal just dosen't impress me. How many jujitsuists have you seen get stabbed to death in situations they could have avoided if only they'd known that techniques are fallible?

    Very dramatic, but not really a true argument you're making.



    I really have to take issue with this. I'm not trying to impress anybody. I really have no interest if someone across the other side of the planet that I've never met before doesn't believe what I've seen/done/experienced. I was just putting my opinions into the context of where I come from. South-East London (New Cross, Depford, Peckham, Brixton, Lewisham etc.) can be an extremely violent place - And a mugging here isn't 'give me your money or I'll stab you", it's "I'll stab you and then go through your pockets at my leisure".
    And in large cities in the US there are also random shootings and stabbings that would be nearly impossible to defend against. Even if you're a terrific martial artist there's no defense against someone randomly shooting you in the back. Things like this happen, unfortunately, all over the world.

    As I said before, I believe you if you say that you grew up in a nasty place with a lot of crime. Many people live in such places. I don't doubt that you've lived in a high crime area, and seen crimes committed.

    But, what I take issue with is your assertion that you've specifically seen someone die in a pool of blood because he was locked into technique-centric thinking. You're missing my point and instead getting defensive over your background, which I wasn't even doubting.



    I am now a successful TV Producer and Director. I have travelled the world and I have made all manner of shows, from light entertainment to undercover investigative documentaries. If I wanted to impress someone, it really wouldn't be some anonymous person on the internet and it certainly wouldn't by telling them I come from a ****-hole or that I grew up by the old 'Den' - former home of Millwall Football Club (to the non Brits, look it up) . These days I have slightly better credentials than that and in truth, I think I'd rather people knew me for that side of my life but still...
    This is quite a lot of defensiveness considering I wasn't even doubting what you claimed about your background.



    I was perhaps being colourful in my use of the 'on the floor in a pool of blood' phrase, but for the record, yes I have actually seen a man die in front of me, on the floor, in a pool of blood, with a big frickin' knife sticking out of his heart in a local (Zsar Bar, Ladywell circa 2000 - now closed down!) bar/nightclub. However, I doubt there much much in the way of MA at all in that particular altercation. If this was a thread about the perils of dealing crack on a rival's turf, I might have brought it up previously.
    So, now you're even agreeing with me. The stabbing was not pertaining to technique-based thinking at all. It was not an arrogant JJ man getting stabbed by a hardcore WC guy. It was just an ordinary stabbing.

    Therefore, your assertions concerning technique-based thinking are unsupported.



    So I'm sorry you call bullshit on me. I'm sorry you think I'm trying to impress folks on a MA forum (wtf?). I'm not. In truth I am embarrassed about that side of my life and outside of this forum (where I thought knowledge gained from 'real life' experience as opposed to training and teachings would be appreciated) I would never ever discuss any of this but it's my life and I can't change it. I have no idea who you are, but really, who are you to call bullshit on my life and what I've been through? Seriously, get fucked.
    You're strawmanning hard here. I have not called bullshit on your life. On the contrary, I said I believed you.





    For the last time, I have never, at any point said that WC was the be-all and end-all of combative arts (it's not even my main style!). All I've done from my first post onwards is spoken from personal experience, while other people talk about purely hypothetical situations and spout cliche-ridden Bullshido forum mantra.
    Strawman again. "I'm t3h r34l because I grew up in a dangerous neighborhood, but you guys only 'spout cliche-ridden Bullshido forum mantra."

    Is that even worth responding to? You're sure going off on a huge tangent claiming I disregarded your personal experiences, when I didn't even doubt your claims about growing up in a rough neighborhood.

    I mean, this is becoming Phil Elmore-esque in it's length and distraction.


    "However, it's significantly less likely that you saw a jujitsu man get stabbed while wondering why his drop seioi didn't automatically work. "

    How is it less likely? How do you know? What's this magic ingredient that apparently all JJ students are imbued with the moment they first don a gi? Answer?
    Answer: It's less likely that a JJ player is going to be unrealistically trusting in knowledge of techniques alone because JJ players tend to spar.

    Of course, there are some who don't, and they might fall prey to the intellectual/technique trap.


    There is none and you don't know, because you weren't there in the situations I spoke of.
    This is a failure of your logic because you started out talking about JJ students in general, but now are saying I can't reply on general grounds because you experienced specific situations.

    You're not maintaining the same frame of reference (general statements about JJ students vs. specific statements about the guy you saw stabbed) and trying to use that to invalididate my responses.


    A couple of people have actually tried to engage in proper conversation in this thread but personal digs and flippant comments about me, my life and my opinions are frankly rather childish and serve no purpose.
    Ah, now we hear the term "childish" being thrown about. Heh heh.

    But, I haven't made personal digs about you, nor have I doubted your life story. I think you're imagining all these dimensions in a very defensive way.

    Does that make me childish, or you childish?


    I have no experience of sports fighting and so don't comment on it, but whether you believe me or not, I do know a little something about looking after myself, and I have learned that the hard way.

    Thought I'd make a couple of comments so people might not have to go through what I did growing up and in my first couple of violent confrontations, but obviously I've failed.
    Oh, okay. So written posts on a forum replace the experience of really facing down or attacking an assailant on the street?

    Really, now I'm done. Have your rant. Slag me off. Whatever. Life's too short to waste time talking to people that have already made their minds up a long time ago. Have a nice day....

    No one is slagging you off. You're imagining it.

    If this is how you react when someone believes a lot of what you said, I'd hate to see what you do if someone questions something you've said during the undercover investigative documentaries you say you've produced. Do you bil gee them in the eyes?






    PS: I stand corrected on the William Cheung vs. Emin Boztepe incident. I mixed up my names.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  9. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 7:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Das Moose
    "As for why there's not too many decent WC practitioners in MMA tournaments - You create a MMA format that doesn't take away 90% of a WC practitioner's weapons (eyes, throat, groin, spine strikes etc) "

    Dude... bullshit. How do you expect to be able to hit someone in the eye with a biu tze if you can't even punch them in the jaw with a straight punch? And why on earth would *anyone* want to rely on doing that sort of thing? Do you really want to be thinking "okay, i can either not fight, or I can blind this guy" (that's assuming you really can pull it off)

    And NINETY freaking percent? What kind of _ing _un did you do? I pretty much *never* train the illegal strikes (illegal in terms of competition) altho I do know them.

    There is absolutely no good reason why you can't use WC in MMA competition. The open-handed gloves actually lend themselves more to WC because of its more intricate techniques - and i'm not talking about ludicrous 3-step traps. You know what a Jut Sau is? Jerking Arm? Boxer throws a jab. Pak (slap/parry) it, then jerk it down and fill the gap with a straight punch from your other hand at the same time. Which part of that is illegal in MMA?

    And you know what? It's the same as it is with grappling, if you have to really **** someone up to beat them, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. You always know someone's only slightly better than their opponent if they have to slam on an armbar or a choke. If you're really better than them, you should be able to actually *tell* them what you're going to do and they won't be able to stop it. Same thing with striking (altho you can't tell them obviously) - you should not have to blind/cripple/kill/whatever your opponent to beat them. And again, I firmly agree with Matt Thornton's beliefs on training non-dangerous techniques to full contact being far more effective than learning deadly techniques and never being able ot practise them.
    Had no idea you were still around.
  10. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 8:26pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Eternal Rage you denegrate the general standard of _ing __un you have seen. Yet respect it when people are able to make it work with realistic resistance. As do I.

    I think its worth noting though that IMO most MA classes suck. It depends on the level of aliveness how good the group is in my view. ie. i dont like endless forms. It depends on the focus of the group.
    Last edited by Lefty; 2/15/2006 8:32pm at .
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