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  1. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 10:39pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benfscott
    Wow... and I thought the arguments I was having at the beginning of this thread were strong. Well, while I've got a connection I might as well add my tuppence... Again!

    I've seen terrible looking Wing Chun being performed and trained and I have seen (and trained) Wing Chun in a very methodical and scientific way which was extremely practical. All this talk about 'the real' WC is such a load of old bollocks and I really don't think anyone is trying to make out that if you train at their school of WC they will become 'the one'.

    But just because you may not have found/witnessed/experienced a good teacher of WC, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

    It's an incredibly popular style, and subsequently you are going to get a lot of people, some who have only trained themselves for 6-7 years before opening their own school, teaching it badly. But that doesn't mean the style itself is inherently bad. As has been mentioned before, just because a style is called BJJ, it doesn't automatically make it perfectly tought and infallible either.

    I think another issue that can cause concern to the casual observer is that some schools only stick to a very traditional sylabus, for the sake of retaining that heritage etc. I think this is totally valid, as many people train in CMA for reasons other than fight skills and I think it is important to keep that side of it alive.

    However, I am fortunate that my school does teach a traditional sylabus but also applies WC concepts to all manner of modern self defence situations.

    We train with our backs against a wall, against multiple opponents, attack from behind etc... I don't know if these things are part of the traditional WC sylabus or not, but I'm thankful we train them and the concepts are the same as the rest of the system. To me its still WC. You might think differently.

    I just re-read this and realised that in essence I AM saying my school teaches the REAL Wing Chun. ****.

    As for why there's not too many decent WC practitioners in MMA tournaments - You create a MMA format that doesn't take away 90% of a WC practitioner's weapons (eyes, throat, groin, spine strikes etc) and I'm sure they would do well. I know it's an obvious answer, but it simply isn't a sport. That's just not what it is designed for.

    Okay I'm done....
    Actually I'm pretty sure even the better WC guys would suck if all those weapons were allowed. It's not like other systems don't know how to strike the throat, spine, eye gouge etc. The typical "WC too deadly for the ring" argument comes up all the time. It's been pretty much discredited cause even when they allow those things WC guys don't seem to win.

    I'm not saying all WC is the suck, but its moves are definitely not too deadly for the ring.
  2. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 10:53pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benfscott

    Surely there are just good fighters and bad fighters - In a real-world no rules fight I really think this scissors-paper-stone 'Jui-Jutsu beats Wing Chun' mentality will often leave people on the floor in a pool of blood wondering why their invincible technique failed them, whatever style they train in.

    Funny you mention jujitsu, but not kung fu, in the context of putting too much faith into techniques alone.

    I believe you when you say that you grew up in a bad neighborhood with lots of crime. Many people do, and some of those people do indeed get into martial arts for self defense. However, it's significantly less likely that you saw a jujitsu man get stabbed while wondering why his drop seioi didn't automatically work. I call bullshit on your dramatic die-in-a-pool-of-blood-I've-seen-it-all-before-folks statement.

    I grew up in New York City and lived in New Orleans as a grad student. I've been mugged or otherwise accosted on the str33t more than once. And yet, your whole dramatic "I-know-t3h-str33t" appeal just dosen't impress me. How many jujitsuists have you seen get stabbed to death in situations they could have avoided if only they'd known that techniques are fallible?

    Very dramatic, but not really a true argument you're making.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  3. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 11:22pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ya know in regards to the poke'm in the eye thing....that's simple dirty tactics that I sure as hell would do at the drop of a hat in a "real" fight where I was defending myself under circumstances where I felt legitimately in danger.

    The eye poking, throat jabbing, groin twisting tactics aren't owned by any particular style but fall into a category all their own. I know in my Kempo school I was always taught to utilize such tools and to practice techniques utilizing them with control, but I always found fighting with at least a basic ruleset to be far more entertaining and would be a far more "legal" way to defend myself....saves you alot of trouble down at the station when all you did was KO him rather than jam his nose into his retinas/brain cavity :)
  4. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 11:23pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hrm...I should have read the whole thread before posting.....
  5. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 11:36pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Oh so you have "teh real BJJ" as full certified directly by Helio? Helio who now wears a blue belt in disgust at the direction BJJ has taken. Welcome to the club pal.

    Wing Chun grappling drills are easy. You just try and push each other over, grab eachother from the shapes and counter and go for sweeps, throws, breaks, perhaps a choke or whatever that came out. Its called Chin nah dude - its an important part of any CMA. By doing it people figure out what all the shapes and body mechanics are for and learn about what not to do.

    The truth is most _ing __un people dont know anything about the Chin Nah components of their style. This is a shame because it teaches a lot of lessons.

    If sparring using different formats and using that as a test for the effectiveness of techniques means according to you, that I miraculously have "teh real Wing Chun" then I'm not the only one and thans for the thought. The real WC then could be defined as the open source application of WC ideas to different full resistance sparring formats. Kind of like "reality Wing Chun".
    Does your instructor teach Chin-Na techniques from a scientific point of view (muscle/tendon/ligament grabbing and twisting) or from a mystical perspective (interrupting chi flow etc....)?
    Last edited by Ke?poFist; 2/14/2006 11:42pm at .
  6. Firebrand is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 11:39pm


     Style: BJJ, Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wounded Ronin posted.
    So, Leung Ting was only taken down by Emin Boztepe because he was *scared*.
    Actually, it was William Cheung that was taken down by Emin Boztepe. Emin was representing Leung Ting at the time.
  7. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 2:08am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    So, Leung Ting was only taken down by Emin Boztepe because he was *scared*. Oooooohhhhhh...it all makes *sense* now!
    Emin Boztepe took down William Cheung in what amounted to a group of people trying to take over the seminar. Apparently Emin attacked the guy in a less than honourable fashion and these days wishes to distance himself from those events.

    Many have said the whole thing was set up by Leung Ting. He used a young, fit, athletic guy with experience competing in Turkish wrestling. Since then the VT organisation has been taken over by the Lord Professor Kernspecht and Emin Boztepe was kicked out.

    Apparently William Cheung was saying he was far better than Leung Ting and LT had modified the system and didnt have the real Wing Chun as passed down by Yip Man. Apparently this caused enough offense for an ambush in what was probably the worst moment in _ing __un modern history. Far be it for there to be an honourable competition between Grand Masters where people could assess skill. But then again Leung Ting was essentially a nerd so...

    These days VT boast about modifying VT to be more effective. So it was all wank - they had modified it, but didnt want to admit it. Also Emin publically states he doesnt know the whole system and his secret is to train 6 hours a day. From speaking to instructors in his system they rarely see him let alone spend time developing effective sparring skills.
  8. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 2:23am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Does your instructor teach Chin-Na techniques from a scientific point of view (muscle/tendon/ligament grabbing and twisting) or from a mystical perspective (interrupting chi flow etc....)?
    I dont believe in chi its all about body mechanics.

    I dislike any reasoning to do with the mystical. Because the mystical is beyond reason.
  9. benfscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 3:41pm


     Style: Southern Praying Mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Funny you mention jujitsu, but not kung fu, in the context of putting too much faith into techniques alone.

    Not funny at all. It's a commonly held mentality on these forums that BJJ beats Wing Chun and that there is no room for argument. To me that is a ridiculous notion, as so much more has to be taken into account, not least the general randomness of fighting for 'real'. As I have mentioned before in this thread, there is NO INVINCIBLE TECHNIQUE from ANY style. I have a;so said I have probably seen more bad WC being taught than any other style, but I have also see it being taught brilliantly. It could quite easily have been the other way around for the point I was trying to make, but this is Bullshido - everyone DOES think JJ beats WC!

    If you read my previous posts you'll know my take is that one is not necessarily better than the other and that I feel the the tescher and the individual makes the fighter more than the style or technique, although that too IS a factor, obviously, just not the overriding one.


    I believe you when you say that you grew up in a bad neighborhood with lots of crime. Many people do, and some of those people do indeed get into martial arts for self defense. However, it's significantly less likely that you saw a jujitsu man get stabbed while wondering why his drop seioi didn't automatically work. I call bullshit on your dramatic die-in-a-pool-of-blood-I've-seen-it-all-before-folks statement.

    I grew up in New York City and lived in New Orleans as a grad student. I've been mugged or otherwise accosted on the str33t more than once. And yet, your whole dramatic "I-know-t3h-str33t" appeal just dosen't impress me. How many jujitsuists have you seen get stabbed to death in situations they could have avoided if only they'd known that techniques are fallible?

    Very dramatic, but not really a true argument you're making.



    I really have to take issue with this. I'm not trying to impress anybody. I really have no interest if someone across the other side of the planet that I've never met before doesn't believe what I've seen/done/experienced. I was just putting my opinions into the context of where I come from. South-East London (New Cross, Depford, Peckham, Brixton, Lewisham etc.) can be an extremely violent place - And a mugging here isn't 'give me your money or I'll stab you", it's "I'll stab you and then go through your pockets at my leisure".

    I am now a successful TV Producer and Director. I have travelled the world and I have made all manner of shows, from light entertainment to undercover investigative documentaries. If I wanted to impress someone, it really wouldn't be some anonymous person on the internet and it certainly wouldn't by telling them I come from a ****-hole or that I grew up by the old 'Den' - former home of Millwall Football Club (to the non Brits, look it up) . These days I have slightly better credentials than that and in truth, I think I'd rather people knew me for that side of my life but still...

    I was perhaps being colourful in my use of the 'on the floor in a pool of blood' phrase, but for the record, yes I have actually seen a man die in front of me, on the floor, in a pool of blood, with a big frickin' knife sticking out of his heart in a local (Zsar Bar, Ladywell circa 2000 - now closed down!) bar/nightclub. However, I doubt there much much in the way of MA at all in that particular altercation. If this was a thread about the perils of dealing crack on a rival's turf, I might have brought it up previously.

    So I'm sorry you call bullshit on me. I'm sorry you think I'm trying to impress folks on a MA forum (wtf?). I'm not. In truth I am embarrassed about that side of my life and outside of this forum (where I thought knowledge gained from 'real life' experience as opposed to training and teachings would be appreciated) I would never ever discuss any of this but it's my life and I can't change it. I have no idea who you are, but really, who are you to call bullshit on my life and what I've been through? Seriously, get fucked.

    For the last time, I have never, at any point said that WC was the be-all and end-all of combative arts (it's not even my main style!). All I've done from my first post onwards is spoken from personal experience, while other people talk about purely hypothetical situations and spout cliche-ridden Bullshido forum mantra.

    "However, it's significantly less likely that you saw a jujitsu man get stabbed while wondering why his drop seioi didn't automatically work. "

    How is it less likely? How do you know? What's this magic ingredient that apparently all JJ students are imbued with the moment they first don a gi? Answer? There is none and you don't know, because you weren't there in the situations I spoke of. A couple of people have actually tried to engage in proper conversation in this thread but personal digs and flippant comments about me, my life and my opinions are frankly rather childish and serve no purpose. I have no experience of sports fighting and so don't comment on it, but whether you believe me or not, I do know a little something about looking after myself, and I have learned that the hard way.

    Thought I'd make a couple of comments so people might not have to go through what I did growing up and in my first couple of violent confrontations, but obviously I've failed.

    Really, now I'm done. Have your rant. Slag me off. Whatever. Life's too short to waste time talking to people that have already made their minds up a long time ago. Have a nice day....
  10. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2006 4:20pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People who think that doing any MA is somehow going to emanate some sort of inivisble protective shield from violent criminals are just deluding themselves.
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