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  1. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 12:37am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TehDeadlyDimMak
    Why is it that there are no good WC MMAers or Kickboxers?

    Every other art seems to have had at least SOME.
    Look I know I came off as a WC nutrider just now but I'm not. It is necessary to learn it well and then spar a lot to be any good at all. Also with boxing gloves I fight using a hybrid of FMA hands and WC.

    I think the art overall does not have all the answers and have thought about giving it away altogether. Reason is I adapt an idea from different WC practitioners who are very good then someone comes at me with "thats not teh real _ing __un" then I'm like yes it is its an idea adapted from this, see... and its like I need permission to do it the way I prefer. That part of it shits me off.

    Hence I have tended to go and focus more on a FMA/WC kickboxing style of my own. I definitely dont claim the "real WC" for me that puts one in a silo from which one may never emerge.
  2. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 12:47am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawarma
    It amuses me that you do not realize that what you are saying is essentially "I have the real wing chun, although most others don't."
    Okay I am saying:

    I claim no WC lineage as being "the real one".

    I claim no perfect knowledge passed down by a sole inheritor.

    I only claim to apply realistic sparring to WC. In an attempt to kill its sacred cows and test its claims from the inside.

    So:

    I am either saying there is no "real WC" because there is no sole inheritor and no one lineage.

    Or that anyone who tries to apply realistic resistance to WC concepts is doing the real WC.

    So either "teh real WC" doesnt exist at all. Or is an attempt to make it more open, honest, and accountable to modern sparring methods.

    Is there anything wrong with that? In my opinion the only people who should comment on the effectiveness of WC are the people who have tried to apply it with full resistance, or it can just end up in pointless chi wizardry.

    Summary:
    The people who train like they fight and then fight with it have the "real WC", or no one has it.

    I agree that most WC places dont train like that so they wouldnt know how to apply it if it hit them in the face. Its just like the fact the majority of martial artists are crap and cant represent their style.
    Last edited by Lefty; 2/14/2006 12:50am at .
  3. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 12:58am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also its worth noting that within the BJJ community many say I have the real BJJ and others do not. Hence the blue belt wearing and recent statements of disgust by Helio. So dont be so glib.

    Do you have "teh real BJJ"?
  4. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 1:17am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    I often whince out loud when looking at _ing __un on the internet.
    How does one "wince out loud" - I always thought wincing was a facial gesture...

    People rarely use their body the way my group does. Eg. its all slappy crap with the arms, without effective body work, footwork or good body mechanics. Normally they dont even grab or grapple at all- its all imitations of a photo of Yip Man in the 50's when he was probably just joking around with students a lot like how Tatang would try use different postures to invite students to attack him.
    You are comparing yourself to the _ing _un community and then criticizing them and telling us about what you think your group does that is so much better than everyone else. This is definitely talk about "teh real wing chun". I have heard a million other _ing _un people say similar things about everyone except themselves too.

    As a martial arts teacher one time this guy who was a huge body builder a foot taller than me and maybe 3 times my weight grabbed my weak arm as hard as he could and said get out of it. Even by using the small movements of WC I couldnt move my arm at all to break with tahn sao. Seeing as it was a stick flghting class I just swapped my stick hand and hit him in the back of the head. Which is definitely the FMA way; to go with the flow and dont fight the force.

    Later my group started to do WC grappling drills. One thing I realised was I could've used my body to pivot and break the grip. This is only something I realised from practisiing grappling. So yeah its silly to claim knowledge outside of one's restrictive sphere especially if what you do is the 99% of crap slap _ing __un one sees paraded on the internet - usually by the VT uber organisation.
    Look at what you wrote there!!!! "99% of crap slap _ing _un" - this is implying that you are in the 1% that is doing it right. Hence you are claiming "teh real wing chun." You even focus fire on the VTs...
  5. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 1:24am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Also its worth noting that within the BJJ community many say I have the real BJJ and others do not. Hence the blue belt wearing and recent statements of disgust by Helio. So dont be so glib.

    Do you have "teh real BJJ"?
    First off Helio and his family may have started BJJ, but they don't own it. It is bound to be interpreted different ways for different people, because, well, people are different.

    Secondly, even if there are different interpretations of BJJ you don't see different factions of BJJ insulting each other and fighting with each other and completely downgrading the entire system as a whole like you see with the _ing _un community. Furthermore, ranked BJJ practitioners are expected to compete and test their skills and interpretations with fully resisting opponents. Hence BJJers reevaluate and update their interpretations accordingly so that it works at least for them. Don't see that with most of the _ing _un community - you have millions of _ing _uners running around with a skillset that won't work for them, and they don't know it.

    So don't compare the two. You just come off as ignorant. I spent a good number of years in _ing _un, and while I still have incredible amounts of respect for my teacher, who kept testing his skills against fully resisting opponents all the freaking time, I have little respect for the rest of the _ing _un world. Go ahead ask me what lineage I was in and tell me it wasn't teh real _ing _un.
  6. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 1:38am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gee havent I gone into enough detail?

    Wince out loud.
    Definition of wince: To shrink or start involuntarily, as in pain or distress; flinch.
    Therefore I make an involuntary noise when in the process of wincing at _ing __un as I view it on the internet.

    Also I never said I do "teh real" anything just that I am trying to spar it realistically. I mean if people didn't roll on the mat would you say they do the real BJJ? Ofcourse not.

    Do you assert to do the real BJJ and criticise others who do not spar but learn BJJ from videos? If so, you are exactly the same as any other MA sceptic out there like myself.

    Why should I say that a TMA is real if they never spar REAListically? That is my point. Therefore if the definition of "real WC" is that one spars realistically in it - then I include myself and anyone else who takes this approach. I dont claim to be some secret master with all the goodies - just that resistant sparring develops the ability to apply WC and that WC needs to be developed in conjunction with a wider knowledge of CMA and other arts.

    That same definition of a "real" MA could be applied to any MA. ie. a REAL martial art is trained with realistic resistance and aliveness.

    Just because most schools dont seem to spar realistically this puts the "real" approach in the minority - to me this is the crux of the problem.
  7. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 1:48am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    First off Helio and his family may have started BJJ, but they don't own it. It is bound to be interpreted different ways for different people, because, well, people are different.
    So they take it and change it and you dont care how it ends up being represented. Its all valid to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Secondly, even if there are different interpretations of BJJ you don't see different factions of BJJ insulting each other and fighting with each other and completely downgrading the entire system as a whole like you see with the _ing _un community. Furthermore, ranked BJJ practitioners are expected to compete and test their skills and interpretations with fully resisting opponents. Hence BJJers reevaluate and update their interpretations accordingly so that it works at least for them. Don't see that with most of the _ing _un community - you have millions of _ing _uners running around with a skillset that won't work for them, and they don't know it.
    BJJ has competition at its core. WC should have a safe format of competition too IMO. The competition help to weed out bullshit artists. Soon BJJ will have more video graded blackbelts than any other style. The videos are already being sold to crappy little MA schools around the world. A local place here teaches basic WC and BJJ and they are crap and dont spar at all- its a highly priced RBSD place that teaches anti-gun defenses ffs.

    Helio insults your crap variants of BJJ you have absorbed at great cash dollar expense (see links).

    http://www.gracieacademy.com/worldwi...omessage.shtml

    http://www.blackbeltdigitalvideo.com...ew-news43.html



    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    So don't compare the two. You just come off as ignorant. I spent a good number of years in _ing _un, and while I still have incredible amounts of respect for my teacher, who kept testing his skills against fully resisting opponents all the freaking time, I have little respect for the rest of the _ing _un world. Go ahead ask me what lineage I was in and tell me it wasn't teh real _ing _un.
    Oh who's the fucking expert who comdemns the whole WC world except for your one master? So you yourself are claiming "teh real WC" and just wanted to stomp on someone elses views who is seeking to train realistically. You disgust me AND Helio.
    Last edited by Lefty; 2/14/2006 1:51am at .
  8. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 2:02am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Go ahead ask me what lineage I was in and tell me it wasn't teh real _ing _un.
    What lineage was it you were so expert in? I need some comic relief...
  9. benfscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 3:18pm


     Style: Southern Praying Mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow... and I thought the arguments I was having at the beginning of this thread were strong. Well, while I've got a connection I might as well add my tuppence... Again!

    I've seen terrible looking Wing Chun being performed and trained and I have seen (and trained) Wing Chun in a very methodical and scientific way which was extremely practical. All this talk about 'the real' WC is such a load of old bollocks and I really don't think anyone is trying to make out that if you train at their school of WC they will become 'the one'.

    But just because you may not have found/witnessed/experienced a good teacher of WC, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

    It's an incredibly popular style, and subsequently you are going to get a lot of people, some who have only trained themselves for 6-7 years before opening their own school, teaching it badly. But that doesn't mean the style itself is inherently bad. As has been mentioned before, just because a style is called BJJ, it doesn't automatically make it perfectly tought and infallible either.

    I think another issue that can cause concern to the casual observer is that some schools only stick to a very traditional sylabus, for the sake of retaining that heritage etc. I think this is totally valid, as many people train in CMA for reasons other than fight skills and I think it is important to keep that side of it alive.

    However, I am fortunate that my school does teach a traditional sylabus but also applies WC concepts to all manner of modern self defence situations.

    We train with our backs against a wall, against multiple opponents, attack from behind etc... I don't know if these things are part of the traditional WC sylabus or not, but I'm thankful we train them and the concepts are the same as the rest of the system. To me its still WC. You might think differently.

    I just re-read this and realised that in essence I AM saying my school teaches the REAL Wing Chun. ****.

    As for why there's not too many decent WC practitioners in MMA tournaments - You create a MMA format that doesn't take away 90% of a WC practitioner's weapons (eyes, throat, groin, spine strikes etc) and I'm sure they would do well. I know it's an obvious answer, but it simply isn't a sport. That's just not what it is designed for.

    Okay I'm done....
  10. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2006 10:22pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by marble
    :llorar: The situation where you need to wrestle is when both opponents want to grab. Western boxing is supposed to be hitting, but you still see situations where they want to hold on to each other. This is because one of them is scared. If you are scared then you will try to hold onto your opponent. It is very difficult for someone to lock or hold onto you if you know Wing Chun. You can stop the other guy holding or grabbing. If someone grabs you, you will only try to grab back if you are scared. But if you are not scared, then he cannot force you into a wrestling situation.
    So, Leung Ting was only taken down by Emin Boztepe because he was *scared*. Oooooohhhhhh...it all makes *sense* now!
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