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  1. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 1:24pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At Bullshido most of us believe that some styles are indeed better than other styles.

    If a style advocates moves that are less effective than another style's, then doesn't that make the ladder a more formidable style?

    True that by rule of thumb not all FIGHTERS from one style will be worse than another style's fighters, but it doesn't rule out the fact that they could be doing even better if they switched to a more effective style.
  2. benfscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 1:36pm


     Style: Southern Praying Mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TehDeadlyDimMak
    BJJ and other "sport arts" can easily be adapted for self defense situations. Anyone skilled can defend against eye gouges, throat strikes, and other so called "street moves." Also, you lost credibility when you advocated elbow striking to the spine during takedowns.

    Watch the NHB Jason Delucia vs Royce Gracie fight. Lots of elbows to the spine, no pools of blood. Undoubtedly Delucia is probably better at Kung Fu than your teachers also.

    I'm not saying they're useless, but I feel these moves can easily be countered by the "sport fighting" community also.
    Okay, one more time, I don't have any issue whatsoever with sports fighting, and I don't doubt that a good grappler can 'have it' on the street. Wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth....

    I lost credability advocating elbows? I didn't advocate them, I just said I've seen someone annihilate a grappler in a club by repeatedly elbowing him in the spine. I myself have most certainly won/ended a fight by sticking my thumb in the eye of the guy who was trying to take me to the pavement when I got attacked at 3am in south London. This is my own experience. I'm not going on some spurious anecdotal evidence, or judging what works when you're fighting for your life by whether Royce Gracie could deal with it in competition.

    You might say these guys I and this other guy fought are crap grapplers, but then I'm not necessarily the greatest Kung Fu practitioner... It's about the person, not the art.
  3. benfscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 1:47pm


     Style: Southern Praying Mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TehDeadlyDimMak
    At Bullshido most of us believe that some styles are indeed better than other styles.

    If a style advocates moves that are less effective than another style's, then doesn't that make the ladder a more formidable style?

    True that by rule of thumb not all FIGHTERS from one style will be worse than another style's fighters, but it doesn't rule out the fact that they could be doing even better if they switched to a more effective style.
    I think you have a very valid point there. To me the spinny head kicks of TKD are an absolute joke, but I'm sure there MUST be someone out there doing it that can fight effectively. Just the vast majority of its practitioners are never going to be good enough to make **** like that work.

    By the same token, I have seen exactly the same punch, in the exact same style, taught completely differently by different teachers.

    One way was scientific and taught the importance of footwork and weight transferrence in the punch whilst the other was all about overwhelming with speed, lacked any power whatsoever and it was in my opinion, totally irresponsible to send people out into the world thinking that would help them in any confrontation... That tells me the right teacher is the more important thing.

    Wow, actual proper debate... Respect TehDeadlyDimMak!
  4. wagamichi is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 2:04pm


     Style: wagamichi shorei kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Everybody just calm down! civility is creeping back into a WC thread.
  5. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 2:12pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benfscott
    I think you have a very valid point there. To me the spinny head kicks of TKD are an absolute joke, but I'm sure there MUST be someone out there doing it that can fight effectively. Just the vast majority of its practitioners are never going to be good enough to make **** like that work.

    By the same token, I have seen exactly the same punch, in the exact same style, taught completely differently by different teachers.

    One way was scientific and taught the importance of footwork and weight transferrence in the punch whilst the other was all about overwhelming with speed, lacked any power whatsoever and it was in my opinion, totally irresponsible to send people out into the world thinking that would help them in any confrontation... That tells me the right teacher is the more important thing.

    Wow, actual proper debate... Respect TehDeadlyDimMak!
    Ah I see your point. It's true that there is a large amount of variation within styles. So I agree with you that the individual school matters a whole lot. Awesome.

    Out of curiosity what branch of SPM do you do? I did NPM for a number of years.
  6. benfscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 6:12pm


     Style: Southern Praying Mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can't cope with people agreeing with me.... I'm filling up here... lol

    Did Chow Gar Southen Mantis under Sifu King Lui. Then politics and arguments about training methods led to a split in the ranks and our school went its own as simply Southern Praying Mantis. Did it and loved it for years until my Sifu moved away and I turned into a fat and lazy git for a while till I sorted myself out...

    Did you do 7 star Northern Mantis? There's a lot of differences between the two styles a I recall - I think Northern Mantis imitates the actions of the animal in its striking whilst Southern Mantis imitates the concepts behind the strikes.

    Have to say Northern Mantis always looked so much more 'Kung FU' than my style though. When people came to watch our forms like Form 1, Sam Bo Gin, they always thought it was the ugliest looking thing they had ever seen!

    Anyway, back on subject, I used to have the exact same prejudices about WC as 90% of the Bullshido community but after meeting and watching my new sifu, Kevin Chan, I was converted. This guy is a cut above the vast majority of martial arts instructors and one session training with him was enough to know he can walk the walk, and to a very high standard. When you find someone you trust with your cash, your health and your safety to teach you how to defend yourself, that is (for me anyway) so rare that I'll take the person over the style anytime. Unless its TKD! lol

    Shame it wasn't something more 'cool' though like Muay Thai - I've always wanted to relive my Tun Po Kickboxer fantasy....

    No wait... That didn't sound right. I meant whole pillar kicking thing... Ahh.. I give up.
  7. Psycho Dad is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 6:56pm


     Style: BJJ/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benfscott
    I love how aggressive people get about knocking on traditional martial arts...
    Nope, not traditional martial arts, bullshido-infested martial arts; or haven't you noticed that most of the people who've been attack you so far are practitioners of TMA's as well?
    Quote Originally Posted by Newb1 View Post

    B) I could not beat a Judoka with Aikido. I could only beat an Aikidoka with Aikido. I thought that was understook.
  8. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 7:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This train wreck is a giant thread.

    That's right. I went there.
  9. Simon McNeil is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 8:30pm


     Style: Hei Long Gong Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wagamichi
    The old poke him in the eye ****! why aret there a billion chinese with only one eye? I guess that don't work so well. It may thoe on old women and young children.
    Well... For one... most Chinese people don't do Gongfu or get any closer to it than the movies. Those who do Gong Fu have been fed this Wushu bollox which is nice and pretty (and a decent cardio workout) but has no self-defense or combat efficacy. Finally the main form of competition: San Da is done with huge freaking 16 oz gloves on - ain't nobody losing an eye doing that.

    And for some reason the guys I play with seem to think that height is the deciding factor in a fight, they keep matching me up with these tall skinny beanpoles who are half my weight because the stronger, shorter, stockier guys are about six inches shorter than me. That's the reason I'm organizing this throwdown, I haven't had a good fight since I left Canada.

    I train TCMA and I train for the ring.
  10. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 9:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benfscott
    Strange... I have a ton of respect for the grappling arts but whilst I watch MMA tournaments all the time, I'm not a sports fighter. I'm genuinely just interested in self defence and I have done the thumb in the eye thing myself, and seen good grapplers get repeatedly elbowed in the spine as they go for a takedown against another Kung Fu practitioners...
    As long as you are not stating that the elbow to the spine or eye gouge or groin smash are the "killer techniques" that will automatically save you from every grappler, then ok, everything's groovy. In the past, we have had massive waves of ignorant TMAers who insist that those techniques are the end all be all of TMA vs grappling systems.

    Unfortunately these people fail to realize that these techniques are not easy as they think to pull off, and that the grappler, when on the ground, can also do these techniques (that aren't rocket science or need a great physique) and furthermore will probably be in a better position to do them, since the majority of grappling training is positioning, transitions, and escapes from positions.

    Surely there are just good fighters and bad fighters - In a real-world no rules fight I really think this scissors-paper-stone 'Jui-Jutsu beats Wing Chun' mentality will often leave people on the floor in a pool of blood wondering why their invincible technique failed them, whatever style they train in.
    Although I definitely agree that making assumptions about the outcome of a fight or the state of an opponent is potentially dangerous, it is true that systems have strengths and weaknesses. It is also true that the method of training of a system and the way it is evaluated has strengths and weaknesses. At this point in time, Wing Chun's weaknesses outweigh grapplers mainly because of the way it is generally trained and also because pracititioners have failed to update and evaluate the system in this day and age, hence the system itself suffers as well.

    But you are right, there will be individuals that overcome this, we have had one or two wing chun people here on the forums prove our stereotypes wrong - hence the rationale behind the dangers of making assumptions. However, in recent years, it has been shown that those that would rise above these weaknesses are few in number, hence this forum's generalization that "Jujitsu beats Wing Chun."

    I admit I have definitely seen more embarrassingly inneffectual Kung Fu classes being taught than I've seen good ones (possibly only outdone by TKD!), but ignorance of a martial art is ignorance, regardless of how commonly held those opinions are...
    Apples and oranges. TKD is a sport oriented art and must be evaluated within the restrictions that make it a game - hence for point sparring or Olympic sparring rules, it is the best for that. Most Kung Fu aside from Wushu and other internal arts for health still inaccurately pride themselves on a self defense point of view, and in my opinion have taken the bottom rung of the as a significant chunk of the martial arts world. This is why forums like this one exist. To educate those who need it and to help those who would change kung fu's current state.

    I think to distill Wing Chun down to 'inneffectual chain punches' like so many people do, or saying 'Wing Chun can't defend against style b' is like saying Jui Jutsu or Judo practitioners can only fight people wearing a gi. Simply a load of bollocks.
    Hahahah you need to get a copy of Eddie Bravo's new book then. (just a joke)

    I have had good teachers and terrible teachers and strangely, the one that have taught me the most are the ones who don't fight in the ring/octogon - they are the ones who live in the ****-hole areas, have HAD to learn to be tough both mentally and physically, can read when it is going to 'kick off' in a pub, and ultimately, are prepared to do the most to end a fight as quickly as possible. Not nice but effective. To say these guys are not great fighters because they aren't trained gapplers is seriously doing them a disservice.
    Imagine similar individuals who have grown up in similar areas and have similar experiences but are grapplers. They exist. And if it came down to a fight between your instructors and the grapplers who have had similar experiences, it would come down to who stays in their combat range more effectively. Doesn't have to be this way - to be able to adapt to all fighting ranges is the best. Perhaps your instructors have never had any use for grappling in their fights - this isn't to say that grappling would not have helped them (perhaps it might have helped them end fights even faster) and that doesn't guarantee that they will never need it in the future. Bottom line is its better to be well rounded than specialized, no matter what your previous experiences.

    Furthermore, consider yourself lucky in having those sorts of teachers. Their generation is dying fast and being replaced by the YMCA and mall storefront martial arts instructors who couldn't fight their way out of a bathroom stall.

    Anyway, I await the inevitable flames as I dare to stick up for Wing Chun...
    You will find that from those people still capable of intellectual debate concerning Wing Chun (aside from the masses which have been so jaded from trying to help them that they evolved into flame trigger happy posters) that we have no problem with Wing Chun itself, we just do not like what people have done with it and how they train it.
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