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  1. Simon McNeil is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2006 10:31am


     Style: Hei Long Gong Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Check out the thread on JHR on Kung Fu Magazine and you can see a black american and a white african argue over who is more african and what constitutes african martial arts. You won't actually learn anything but...

    Ok so I'm drunk right now. Damn Chinese hospitality.
  2. Toby Christensen is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 5:59am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Using bag as aggro outlet

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    I did a couple of seminars with Dr. Coetzee (the author of the Zulu stickfighting article) and she probably knows more about this subject than anyone else writing in English.

    Tom Green (author of the other EJMAS article on Dambe boxing) is a professional anthropologist who specializes in MA studies and has a particular interest in African styles. He has two really excellent essays on that subject in the anthology "Martial Arts in the Modern World" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0275981533/sr=8-1/qid=1139544016/ref=sr_1_1/104-1747354-8087953?%5Fencoding=UTF8

    Finally, you can get a copy of Dr. Thomas Desch-Obi's doctoral thesis, "Engolo: Combat traditions in African and African diaspora history", via the university library Interloan system. It's nearly 400 pages long and offers what is probabaly the most comprehensive overview of this subject.
    Link won't work, cos I'm a :dark1:
    What am I?:

    I am ignorant, thieving, lying, hypocrital, violent and thoroughly self obssessed. I steal from others to make myself look better, only to make the item or information worse.

    I go on and on and ON about how brave and strong and brilliant and wealthy I am, but in the end I'm all mouth and no trousers.

    That's right children, I'm your average AMERICUNT! and I exemplify AMERICA!:911flag:

    :occasion1

    JohnnyCache's "retort" proving how much he knows about medicine and geography and First World countries:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=78188&page=22

    Yes, through persistent lack of work and the cultivation of ignorance, he is a true American.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 6:14am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm having problems with that link, too - just do a search for the book title at Amazon.com or via Google.
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 10:05am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Besides Zulu Stick Fighting, I'm not sure you'll find much valuable information that has not already been inflamed with sensationalist quasi-fascist history rewriting and chauvinistic fantasy... which is sad since African Martial Arts would be a nice topic to learn about.

    I remember I saw a black and white movie called "Kindaka" back in the 80's. It was a popular re-run on TV back then in Honduras. And the backdrop of the story is about Zulu stick fighters - the matches were particularly cool and livid. Unfortunately, in this time and age of the online store, imdb.com and google-fu, I have been unable to find it on DVD or VHS :(

    Anyways, beyond the martial art sports that currently exist in Africa, you won't find much of real, objective, historical value. All that is sadly lost. And the good ol'internet provides very little about Zulu stick fighting of any objective value.

    Think of this similar situation: The Aztec Empire in Central Mexico dominated a multi-ethnic, multi-lingual realm comprising between 5 and 10 million people, and had a standing army of 200K men. Moreover, their battle tactics had as one of its main priority the capture of live prisoners since human sacrifices were at the core of Aztec religion - you put 2 + 2 together and it's obvious then that Aztecs must have had some sort of training in maiming, disabling and submitting/restraining prisoners in their weapons and hand-to-hand combat skills. Easier to maim and kill than to capture - especially if the one being capture wants to **** you up with a spear, club or a nasty little toy called macahuitl:


    You find a similar situation with the Mayan and Incan and a myriad of smaller nations and city-states all accross the Americas.

    Several of them were literate people with a writting tradition, and yet, no written records of any martial arts or combat training manuals, or even tales survive today, Similarly with any martial arts, sophisticated or not from many other cultures around the world. Any elaborate claims of such martial arts must be treated with skepticism as the historical accuracy of such would be dubious at best.

    ... hope you can find anything of actual historical value in your search...
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 3:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elnyka
    Besides Zulu Stick Fighting, I'm not sure you'll find much valuable information that has not already been inflamed with sensationalist quasi-fascist history rewriting and chauvinistic fantasy... which is sad since African Martial Arts would be a nice topic to learn about.

    (SNIP)

    Any elaborate claims of such martial arts must be treated with skepticism as the historical accuracy of such would be dubious at best.

    ... hope you can find anything of actual historical value in your search...
    Amen to that. Unfortunately, a great deal of the Internet discussion on this topic has been co-opted into nationalistic agendas, and under those circumstances historical accuracy is the first thing to suffer.

    On the other hand, there are numerous examples of genuinely traditional martial arts and combat sports that have simply been off the radar until recently.

    Consider Venezuelan Garrote Larense, Portuguese Jogo do Pau and Canarian Juego del Palo (all stick fighting systems) amongst many other examples of martial arts/folk-games that have undergone greater or lesser degrees of codification (and commodification) since being exposed to "outsiders", in the latter two cases almost entirely via the Internet. It's not that they were deliberately kept secret, just that they were off the mainstream (literate, middle-class, English-speaking) cultural radar; partly because of communication/technology issues, partly because the people who practiced them didn't consider them to be anything special or realize that anyone outside of their opwn culture would be interested in them.

    Another, more contemporary and non-martial parallel would be le Parkour, the French discipline of freestyle urban gymnastics. Le Parkour began in the mid-1980s as a group of young teenagers fooling around in the Parisian suburb of Lisses, practicing various leaps and acrobatic stunts on the local architecture; unusually, they continued to practice the "art" as they grew up, gradually codifying it into a named discipline with specific techniques and even a basic "philosophy". Over the past four years, however, Parkour has evolved from an underground, off-the-radar activity to a burgeoning mainstream trend; it has been the subject of feature films and numerous TV and print media items. Six years ago, Parkour might have been up for discussion as an urban myth; today, although it isn't a household word, no-one could deny that it exists.

    My point being that although presently obscure African martial arts may well (in some cases, certainly do) exist, they have not yet reached even a modicum of mainstream cultural recognition, and Green and Desch-Obi remain our best hopes towards academic recognition.

    Similarly, there have been cases where little remains of a tribal martial art, or where the art has been preserved in an unsystematic, informal way, and it is eventually absorbed into a more mainstream style that offers a more structured curriculum and "support network". Again, I don't know whether any of this applies to the African styles under discussion here.
  6. jason_couch is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 4:52pm


     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't forget Ed Powe, who's written a handful of books on African and African-derived arts. Here's a sample:
    http://www.blacfoundation.org/papers.html
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 5:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jason_couch
    Don't forget Ed Powe, who's written a handful of books on African and African-derived arts. Here's a sample:
    http://www.blacfoundation.org/papers.html
    Unfortunately, the papers shown in the given URL are sample documents with no bibliographical references. As a result, that is one type of source I would not consider.

    However, I did a quick search on amazon for books published by Edward Powe, and indeed there are several books, including one on the subject of African Stick-fighting (out of print unfortunately.)

    Whether these publications are instructional martial arts, or narratives, that's another issue. By looking at the samples papers, the books seem more narrative than technical, which is totally legit.

    ... don't know if that's the type of material PlankTime is looking for (???) ...
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 5:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hadn't seen those before - good African MA photo gallery on that site, too.
  9. jason_couch is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 7:47pm


     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    (Dr.) Ed Powe does primary research, in fact his books are only available at certain times because he is often out of the country on research trips. I've only seen the books available through his own publishing house (Dan Aiki Publications) and he only does small runs, so you would have to contact him drectly to see what is available. More sociological than technical, but they usually give a good feel for the arts.
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2006 11:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jason_couch
    (Dr.) Ed Powe does primary research, in fact his books are only available at certain times because he is often out of the country on research trips. I've only seen the books available through his own publishing house (Dan Aiki Publications) and he only does small runs, so you would have to contact him drectly to see what is available. More sociological than technical, but they usually give a good feel for the arts.
    That's pretty cool, then.

    BTW, I just watched some of the Dog Brothers video for developing power, and at the start, they show an actual confrontation in Africa using long sticks/poles. This was a very interesting and informative thing - too bad it was just a short clip without much background info.

    This was no sports bout. It was an actual tribal confrontation. The combatants used these long poles, probably 8ft long to wack the living crap out of each other. Hits were mostly from side to side, but ****, those blows were fast and brutal, and the combatants were wearing some sort of head protection as well.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
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