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View Poll Results: If an art has any sub-optimal components is that art bullshido?

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  • Yes.

    4 4.12%
  • No.

    23 23.71%
  • Teachers should warn students of the lack of depth in the specific area.

    70 72.16%
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  1. Mjelva is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 5:41pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    KageKaze has the literary skills of a 9 year old.

    EDIT:

    I will clarify my thoughts. Boxing has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of boxing. There are no techniques or elements of boxing which are suboptimal. Muay thai has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of muay thai. BJJ has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of BJJ.

    To say that muay thai has the suboptimal component of knife work is absurd because that is NOT a component of muay thai. The same goes for boxing and BJJ. Something cannot be a suboptimal component IF IT'S NOT A COMPONENT.
    No other style performs as well under muay thai rules as muay thai, sure. But that's not what we're gunning for, here.
    I've been taught basic strikes in BJJ, even though they're not allowed in competition. Muay thai also includes takedowns (trips), right?
    Those components are suboptimal compared to styles which specialize in striking and takedowns.
  2. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 5:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjelva
    No other style performs as well under muay thai rules as muay thai, sure. But that's not what we're gunning for, here.
    I've been taught basic strikes in BJJ, even though they're not allowed in competition. Muay thai also includes takedowns (trips), right?
    Those components are suboptimal compared to styles which specialize in striking and takedowns.
    If self defense is what you're training for, I recommend wing chun.
  3. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 5:58pm

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    damn, Kid you are on the warpath. I think the point of the thread was to talk about lack of completeness in MA. Hence the poll. Should you Muay Thai instructor (if you only did Muay Thai) tell you about grappling?

    As for recommending Wing Chun... I think you went too far.
  4. Mjelva is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 6:00pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    If self defense is what you're training for, I recommend wing chun.
    Now, that's just sick.
  5. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 6:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KageKaze
    damn, Kid you are on the warpath. I think the point of the thread was to talk about lack of completeness in MA. Hence the poll. Should you Muay Thai instructor (if you only did Muay Thai) tell you about grappling?

    As for recommending Wing Chun... I think you went too far.
    No it wasn't. It was in reference to the fact that JFS was teaching crappy ground fighting and asking the question "Since what JFS does has a sub-optimal component (the crappy anti-grappling) is what JFS does bullshido?" but without specifically tagging it to JFS. If JFS never taught a lick of ground fighting this thread never would've started. It was NOT because JFS is purely a striker/standup fighter and teaches only striking/standup.
  6. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 6:10pm

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    No it wasn't. It was in reference to the fact that JFS was teaching crappy ground fighting and asking the question "Since what JFS does has a sub-optimal component (the crappy anti-grappling) is what JFS does bullshido?" but without specifically tagging it to JFS. If JFS never taught a lick of ground fighting this thread never would've started. It was NOT because JFS is purely a striker/standup fighter and teaches only striking/standup.

    Oh. I been steering clear of the JFS threads. I made my opinion clear early, and it didn't change.

    I guess I mis-interrupted the point of the thread.
  7. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 6:10pm

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You should still apologize for recommending Wing Chun.
  8. Mjelva is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 6:13pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KageKaze
    You should still apologize for recommending Wing Chun.
    ++

    I'm still shocked.
  9. CaptainHowdy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 8:15pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I feel that, as long as teachers warn students of the lack of depth a system has in a certain range of fighting, then there is nothing wrong. What usually constitutes bullshido is a misleading and un-provable claim, and as long as a teacher is perfectly honest with the students there is no bullshido.

    This is still somewhat subjective. For example, if my Judo instructor told me that Judo was a great way to learn striking, that would probably be bullshido. However, if he told me that Judo was a great way to learn striking in that I could use my knowledge of throws and groundwork to place myself in a much more advantageous position (the mount), thereby allowing me to pummel an opponent virtually unchecked, then it's arguable that this is not bullshido. I still wouldn't be able to stand up and hope to fight a good boxer, but if I were able to use a takedown and get into a mount position, I would certainly have a great advantage as far as striking is concerned. This situation is still subjective. Now, if my teacher told me all the crap that I previously listed about an advantageous position and then warned me that I am not going to be able to use Judo to stand up and out-strike a boxer, then that would be a pretty legitimate claim.

    I believe that some level of extrapolation is perfectly fine as long the instructor's claims can be proven effective beyond a reasonable doubt. The more honest and open instructors are with their students, the less likely it is that they are teaching bullshido.

    ADDED: I just read the entire thread, and there are some pretty good thoughts. It seems that whether to define an aspect of a martial art as sub-optimal is completely dependant upon the context/situation in which the martial art is being used. Earlier, I was thinking along the lines of a UFC/Pride style event in which two unarmed opponents of similar weight go at it with the objective being a KO or submission.

    Putting a martial art into the context of varying situations will give you different sets of sub-optimal areas. For example, in Judo competition, Judo is not suboptimal in striking because there is no striking. The same applies for other things like boxing; in a boxing match, boxing does not have sub-optimal groundfighting because there is none in a boxing match. The more unrestricted the situation is, the more clear the sub-optimal components of the MA will become.
    Last edited by CaptainHowdy; 2/12/2006 9:13pm at .
  10. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2006 2:22pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Now, my students, I don't really know how to effectively deal with this scenario but I've been taught this series of techniques which probably don't actually work. That's what we're going to learn today!"

    Yeah right...
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