218358 Bullies, 6015 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

View Poll Results: If an art has any sub-optimal components is that art bullshido?

Voters
97. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes.

    4 4.12%
  • No.

    23 23.71%
  • Teachers should warn students of the lack of depth in the specific area.

    70 72.16%
Results 21 to 30 of 76
Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 123 4567 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Torakaka is offline
    Torakaka's Avatar

    Do you eat breakfast?

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Kaka village
    Posts
    10,658

    Posted On:
    2/10/2006 11:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheManchu
    Other than bjj elbows, the muay thai arm locks, and the lightning fast kicks of boxing, your statement is very useful in a "I didn't understand the words I was reading" sort of way.
    And you have problems with reading comprehension. Are any of these things you mention components of the style? No? Then shut the **** up because you're being an idiot.
  2. Torakaka is offline
    Torakaka's Avatar

    Do you eat breakfast?

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Kaka village
    Posts
    10,658

    Posted On:
    2/10/2006 11:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheManchu
    Officially, KageKaze beat me to the mocking.

    KageKaze has the literary skills of a 9 year old.

    EDIT:

    I will clarify my thoughts. Boxing has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of boxing. There are no techniques or elements of boxing which are suboptimal. Muay thai has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of muay thai. BJJ has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of BJJ.

    To say that muay thai has the suboptimal component of knife work is absurd because that is NOT a component of muay thai. The same goes for boxing and BJJ. Something cannot be a suboptimal component IF IT'S NOT A COMPONENT.
    Last edited by Torakaka; 2/10/2006 11:50pm at .
  3. EternalRage is offline
    EternalRage's Avatar

    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    3,360

    Posted On:
    2/10/2006 11:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PirateJon started this subject on another thread and is making it into a poll thread at another forum poster's suggestion. By "sub-optimal" he means accessory techniques taken from say, boxing, and then used in systems like BJJ to setup takedowns. Of course, these "suboptimal" techniques are in no way a substitution for a full standup system, and this is where his inquiry of our opinion lies.

    My answer:

    1.) If the sub-optimal techniques are to be used specifically in conjunction with techniques from your system and if this combination has been thoroughly tested in a live resisting combat environment, then the techniques are acceptable.

    2.) As long as the instructor makes it clear to the students that the sub-optimal techniques are in no way a substitution of an entire system, and furthermore encourages crosstraining to develop into a well rounded fighter, it is ok.
  4. Plasma is online now
    Plasma's Avatar

    Heel Hook Hunter

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,985

    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 12:01am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: Jiu Jitsu | Knife

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    KageKaze has the literary skills of a 9 year old.

    EDIT:

    I will clarify my thoughts. Boxing has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of boxing. There are no techniques or elements of boxing which are suboptimal. Muay thai has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of muay thai. BJJ has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of BJJ.

    To say that muay thai has the suboptimal component of knife work is absurd because that is NOT a component of muay thai. The same goes for boxing and BJJ. Something cannot be a suboptimal component IF IT'S NOT A COMPONENT.
    Thanks. I am a Mathematician, my literary skills are quite poor.

    If clarify my thoughts. This thread was started because the BJJ/MMA guys were complaining about the lack of grappling is some TMA and Kickboxing Arts(I think this was a split of the JFS attacks). Pirate Job countered with striking in grappling arts. Therefore, it was implied that every art should "well rounded." I am saying thats going to be difficult because every art is going to be missing something, as KidSpatula pointed out. There closest thing would be some of the classical Jujutsu Ryu-Ha which include Grappling (pre-Judo), Weapons (Kenjutsu, Sojutsu), and Striking (Dakenjutsu/Atemijutsu). If a style is missing something then that part is sub-optimal by defination.
  5. Dralion is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Camp Hill PA
    Posts
    287

    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 7:35am


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    If a technique not as good as it's supposed to be *for the situation it's supposed to be usede for*, than it's sub-optimal.

    Royce used lame side kicks to set up good takedowns in early UFCs. these were not sub-obtimal techniques. But using them in a kickboxing match would have been quite sub-optimal.
    I can buy this. Kinda like using a spreadsheet to make a grocery list.
  6. TheManchu is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    588

    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 8:09am


     Style: luk chua bik da

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    KageKaze has the literary skills of a 9 year old.

    EDIT:

    I will clarify my thoughts. Boxing has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of boxing. There are no techniques or elements of boxing which are suboptimal. Muay thai has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of muay thai. BJJ has been optimized to be the most effective skillset for it's designed purpose: the sport of BJJ.

    To say that muay thai has the suboptimal component of knife work is absurd because that is NOT a component of muay thai. The same goes for boxing and BJJ. Something cannot be a suboptimal component IF IT'S NOT A COMPONENT.
    Once you add in kicks, in other words in the framework of fighting, not boxing, the footwork of boxing is suboptimal for considerations of kick defenses.

    BJJ standup is atrocious, period. Suboptimal is being kind.

    Muay thai lacks ground work.

    Suboptimal in the context of fighting. In which case all three qualify as being suboptimal or less than ideal on their own, due to missing elements.

    And in fighting, humans do better with weapons than without.

    This discussion is clearly in reference to suboptimal for sighting, seeking a combination that is not optimal for some narrow field(boxing), but optimal for a well rounded fighting approach.

    If you have no knife skills, and you face a guy with a knife, your hand to hand is not going to be much better than not being trained at all, because the advantage of being armed is so great. It is a fair consideration if self defense is a concern.

    By that definition, yes, boxing is suboptimal, which is likely exactly why you have suplemented it with other things.
  7. TheManchu is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    588

    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 8:31am


     Style: luk chua bik da

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    And you have problems with reading comprehension. Are any of these things you mention components of the style? No? Then shut the **** up because you're being an idiot.
    First, the post I was responding to said those styles have "nothing suboptimal about them", which means my response was right on the money, nothing is far more all encompassing a phrase than "no suboptimal components".

    Second, way to spaz out at a little good natured kidding over your over broad statement that is patently false anyway.

    Third, I disagree with keeping the focus on components and excluding gaps in the method, because quite frankly, one is just as poorly off with suboptimal components than with a gap in training that made one's fighting suboptimal in a broad range of conditions. Either one would make a claim of the style as being complete a bullshido claim, which is what the main point realy was.

    Boxing is complete as sport, but incomplete as a fighting method. Boxing with, say, catch wrestling and muay thai would, conversely, be more complete as a fighting method. This is clearly true, and thus his original statement, which outright stated that beyond merely questions of components his arts had nothing suboptimal about them, was erroneous, or else boxers would be winning nhb fights without ground skills.

    Boxing sucks against kicks, obviously. It is optimal for boxing, but suboptimal for fighting. It needs to be supplemented.

    As I already pointed out, the same with bjj and any number of other more specialized arts. On their own they are suboptimal for fighting because they leave you untrained in certain ranges, thus the whole cross training thing.

    Additionally, boxing one hundred years ago did not endorse the hook that it does now. Why? Much more heavily padded gloves. Why didn't boxers hook that way before? Because that style of hook is more likely to break your hand than the old version, and a broken hand could end the boxer's career. Given that, in fighting, that hook could be said to be suboptimal, but in the ring, it is ideal.

    Since we're talking about fighting attributes, it's perfectly fair to look at areas the style fails to cover as making the style suboptimal without cross training.

    If that does make an art bullshido, then one has to say that that is true of boxing and other endeavors. I wouldn't say that's the case, as long as the style does what it sets out to do, it could hardly be called Bullshido even though it will have weak areas. One simply must put the caveat in there that the style does what it sets out to do, but is not a complete, well rounded approach to fighting.
    Last edited by TheManchu; 2/11/2006 8:36am at .
  8. Torakaka is offline
    Torakaka's Avatar

    Do you eat breakfast?

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Kaka village
    Posts
    10,658

    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 8:36am

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheManchu
    Once you add in kicks, in other words in the framework of fighting, not boxing, the footwork of boxing is suboptimal for considerations of kick defenses.

    BJJ standup is atrocious, period. Suboptimal is being kind.

    Muay thai lacks ground work.

    Suboptimal in the context of fighting. In which case all three qualify as being suboptimal or less than ideal on their own, due to missing elements.

    And in fighting, humans do better with weapons than without.

    This discussion is clearly in reference to suboptimal for sighting, seeking a combination that is not optimal for some narrow field(boxing), but optimal for a well rounded fighting approach.

    If you have no knife skills, and you face a guy with a knife, your hand to hand is not going to be much better than not being trained at all, because the advantage of being armed is so great. It is a fair consideration if self defense is a concern.

    By that definition, yes, boxing is suboptimal, which is likely exactly why you have suplemented it with other things.

    Look up the word "component", please.
  9. TheManchu is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    588

    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 8:40am


     Style: luk chua bik da

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You responded before my edits were done.

    Your original statement was "those arts have nothing suboptimal about them". Are you saying that your version of reading comprehension equates "nothing" to mean the same as "Not this specific thing(components)"?

    I was responding to your statement, and responded correctly. You were talkinng out of your ass, you know damn well that boxing is not optimal or else you wouldn't clearly be training in arts tht specifically that cover those weaknesses(aka suboptimal elements).
  10. TheManchu is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    588

    Posted On:
    2/11/2006 8:44am


     Style: luk chua bik da

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In other words, you were the one that expanded the conversation past components to everything else. I picked gaps as the more important concept to stress, kidded you, and so you're gonna be a loud mouth over something you said in the first place.

    Keerist, drink less coffee, freak.
Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 123 4567 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.