If an art has any sub-optimal components is that art bullshido?

**xingyifa** · Posted On: 2/09/2006 5:43pm

If there are working elements in the art that allow students to consistently win fights against other trained fighters, then the art is not bullshido. It may not be optimal in all situations or against all fighters. In fact, one should expect this to be true. Most things in life that are designed to work under a wide array of conditions never work real well in any of them. Conversely, most things that work really well under one set of conditions aren't very flexible in dealing with widely varying scenarios. Find something that works and makes you happy. Period.

**Kobayashi** · Posted On: 2/09/2006 5:45pm

If a teacher/instructor advertises self-defense and really cares about their students well-being, they should advise their students on the weaknesses of their system. However, it seems that marketing is the primary goal and too many instructors come off as salesmen.

**Pandinha** · Posted On: 2/09/2006 7:31pm

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

Ask Rorian what the other way might be regarding BJJ, not me. :smile:

Perhaps it is a matter of semantics. An art which recognizes its incompleteness makes it more complete. Or, maybe that's zen. LOL.

Anyway, I personally see a distinct difference between cross-checking (or cross-testing) and cross-training. That's a philosophical discussion for another thread and another day, though.

Take care, Anthony.

LOL, thanks Tom! I'll remember that Zen quote. :)

**TheManchu** · Posted On: 2/10/2006 12:29am

Originally Posted by Kidspatula

none of the styles I do have anything suboptimal about them, so I vote bullshido on all that other bullshit.

Other than bjj elbows, the muay thai arm locks, and the lightning fast kicks of boxing, your statement is very useful in a "I didn't understand the words I was reading" sort of way.

**TheManchu** · Posted On: 2/10/2006 12:30am

Officially, KageKaze beat me to the mocking.

**Dralion** · Posted On: 2/10/2006 6:58am

One, I'm glad the majority of people here say that an instructor should tell students about any "Weak Links" in the style.

Two, define "sub-optimal". Is that to say "won't work in a ring/octagon", "won't work on the street".

Three, I think all MA's have some "suboptimal elements", it's up to the student to find them and try as best they can to "fill the holes".

**Dralion** · Posted On: 2/10/2006 9:45am

Originally Posted by Raynor

Less effective than it could be I assume.

Originally Posted by Dralion

Three, I think all MA's have some "suboptimal elements", it's up to the student to find them and try as best they can to "fill the holes".

No its not. Its up to the students to go crosstrain in another style, completing his game. Filling up the holes in your game with poor imitations of another style is like putting in a screen to stop the draft.

I'll buy point 2. But who's to say what it "could be". Yes, I'm playing "Devils Advocate" a bit here.

But arent we saying the same thing on point 3. Isn't one way to "Fill The Holes" by crosstraining in another style?

**MuKen** · Posted On: 2/10/2006 1:53pm

To be fair, there's plenty of snagging single techniques from other styles going on, esp. in the BJJ world...

**Dralion** · Posted On: 2/10/2006 9:18pm

Originally Posted by Raynor

No, when you crosstrain properly the other style IS your style. thats different from running to the nearest thai school to gain a new roundhouse and thats it.

I'd think if you crosstrain, you'd at least have a "Primary Style"

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 2/10/2006 10:02pm

Originally Posted by Dralion

Two, define "sub-optimal".

See my post in the other "sub-optimal" thread, which was banished to YMAIS despite being only half as idiotic as this thread.

If a technique not as good as it's supposed to be *for the situation it's supposed to be usede for*, than it's sub-optimal.

Royce used lame side kicks to set up good takedowns in early UFCs. these were not sub-obtimal techniques. But using them in a kickboxing match would have been quite sub-optimal.