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  1. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 3:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another monumentally horrible post from draygin.
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 3:52pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by draygin
    but I was more referring to how ridiculous a statement it was to say spinal strikes don't work against grapplers as though their training made them less effective.
    They are effective, but not on stopping takedowns. Downward elbows to the spine have been sold as a way to stop a takedown, so in that context, they don't work (and that's the snickering you'll see from grapplers/wrestlers.)

    It's not that grapplers or wrestlers believe they are impervious or invulnerable to downward elbows. Will it hurt? Yes. Can it cause damage? Yes. Can it stop a takedown? No. That is the context that's being debated (at least the context I can agree with.)

    BTW, I believe the herniated disks from sneazing, from personal experience. My neck was injured a while ago, being goign to a chiro and stuff. Last week, I had an dry cough from hell, so bad that I had painful spasms in my triceps and a piercing pain in my C6 and C7 vertebrae. I'm seeing my chiro tomorrow to take a look at that.

    Regarding the UFC rules, many of the things included in the unified MMA rules have more to do with public perception than safety. Again, downward elbows to the back have been allowed in Vale Tudo fights in Brazil for years.

    Now, elbows to the neck, or to the back to the head (where the neck meets the cervical vertebrae), that's something else, and here I can agree with you completely.

    Consider the text you originally quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    BJJ striking is great for what it does. I was taught to set up takedowns with simple, effective strikes, borrowed from other arts. This has been proven to work. On the other hand, elbowing the grappler in the spine is proven NOT to work.
    He's referring that they don't work for stopping takedowns. That's the entire theme and ranting about elbows to the spine. It's is an argument that has been debated and discussed in many threads in this website since its creation.

    He did not imply or claim that elbows to the spine do not cause injury, and neither that's the claim that has been made in the general ranting we have against elbows to the spine.

    Consider the following hypothetical scenario. You punch a resisting opponent in the head a couple of times with a cross, looking a KO, and yet you don't get the KO. Just because you didn't get the KO, does that mean the cross didn't hurt him, or could even possibly cause a concusion that would manifest itself later on?

    In this particular situation, to say that a cross is an effective way to get a KO, that would be misleading and not true (since a KO comes from many factors, and not just the cross itself.) That's argument is orthogonal to Osiris' argument that an elbow to the spine does not work (to stop a takedown.)

    That same argument cannot be taken as implying that a cross does not cause injury or that a person is immune from head injuries just because he doesn't get infallibly KO'ed. That's the argument you seem to have replied to when it comes to elbows to the back, which is an argument neither Osiris nor anyone else has done, AFAIK.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 12/20/2007 3:55pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 4:45pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Then I am sorry if I misunderstood Osiris. I thought he was saying elbows were not effective period. I stand corrected.
  4. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 4:58pm


     Style: Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    I know that this is possible, but usually it is a result of either steroid usage or sever underconditioning. If the cervical spine were that weak the NFL would be full of parapalegics.
    There have been many Football players with major life long injuries from a single tackle. Conditions must be right, but just like a joint lock, if the head is turned just right and you are hit just right, it's all over. The Kick boxer in question was rushing to get back in the ring with a second opponent. He finished one fight and was asked if he would like to take the place of another fighter who did not show. Fatigue may have had the largest contributing factor. MMA guys push themselves much harder than most kick boxers these days. Not arguing here, more just making a statement.

    The situation with the lawsuit was a large object fell from a high shelf at a well known retail chain. The lawyer's first argument was that she had a father who was a doctor that said a herniation was not possible due to the weight of the object, of course daddy would not testify to that under oath. Rebuttal was with multiple cases of sneeze acquired herniation. I mostly brought that up because I would never have believed it. It blew my mind.
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 5:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The beauty of our legal system :tongue6:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. PirateJon is offline
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    and good morning to you too

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 5:43pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what I remember he says that strike to the spine was the one area the the Commision were not preparedto allow in the new rule set. it had nothing to do with "lethality"
    This is why we have the rule.

    From Nick Lembo, Counsel to the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board
    thank you for your inquiry to the NJSACB with regard to downward
    pointed elbow strikes in pro mma matches.

    the downward pointed elbow strike was not allowed due to the potential
    damage the blow could cause.

    the physicians at the time were adamant that this type of strike not be
    allowed while the fighters were standing.

    because we were the first state to pass these rules, we needed to err
    on the side of caution.

    this strike was specifically aimed at taller fighters while standing
    striking straight down with an elbow near the spine or neck.

    it is misapplied in some states now as it should be allowed while for
    example fighting from your guard.

    you cannot generate the power through your hips and feet if you are not
    standing.
    The rule is to - in the words of the wu-tang clan- protect ya neck.

    To dradin - speaking from personal spine damage - causing a ruptutred spinal disk will absolutely not stop someone in a fight. It hurts, but like other pain you can ignore it and most people wait a few days/weeks to see a doctor for it anyway. Unlike other injuries though, it won't heal.

    So to recap a fairly ineffective move + risk of serious or permanent injury = banned.
    see fishhooking, small joint stuff, etc..
    Last edited by PirateJon; 12/20/2007 5:51pm at .
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  7. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 10:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd just like to say that I agree with the title of this thread. Both BJJ and judo are complete bullshido becuase:

    Some BJJ teaches people to use instinctual punching from various advantage positions.

    Judo has the odd kata, (which is done only to get your black belt and nobody really thinks it helps you fight) which has some crappy overhand chop or something. Jesus **** you might as well wear a dress and do aikido .

    Bullshido rating: Ninjer.
    Last edited by Virus; 12/20/2007 11:01pm at .
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