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  1. Ming Loyalist is offline
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar

    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 2:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ****. i just go for it from guard, but it still seems like it could be rough.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  2. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 3:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Try to recognize that an Omoplata is damn hard to actually 'finish'. It is very easy to resist. And very easy to stand up out of. In Judo you stand and it's over.

    I would say it is a low percentage finish and even lower in Judo.

    It is much better as a transition move to a sweep or triangle.

    Here is something to think about....if attacks to the elbow are the only legal armlocks in Judo...why isn't a bicep slicer legal or used?
  3. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 3:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Try to recognize that an Omoplata is damn hard to actually 'finish'. It is very easy to resist.
    I agree, to get to a "finished" Omoplata you pass up, or through, other easier submissions. Particularly various juji katame's.

    Although, completion of an Omoplata during kumite always gets a good cheer from everyone in the dojo.
  4. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 3:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    does anyone else find that in sparring they have to be quite carefull not to roll too quickly into OP?

    maybe it's that i have torn my rotator cuff, but i always apply pressure slowly with this one (just like i do with heel hooks.)

    yes, they have more of a chance to escape, but i wouldn't wish a shoulder or knee injury on anyone. if they are too dumb to tap to a choke, that's their problem.
    Hell yeah, rolling too quickly into just about any joint submission is dangerous.

    I believe it's called "'tarding out".
  5. dramaboy is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 4:32pm


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Try to recognize that an Omoplata is damn hard to actually 'finish'. It is very easy to resist. And very easy to stand up out of. In Judo you stand and it's over.

    I would say it is a low percentage finish and even lower in Judo.
    True. I have NEVER seen it finished in shiai. Just in club radori with no standups.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Here is something to think about....if attacks to the elbow are the only legal armlocks in Judo...why isn't a bicep slicer legal or used?
    For the same reason you can't question the immaculate conception: BECAUSE IT IS IN t3H b00k!!!
    :biblethum

    BTW, one type of bicep slicer is called compression armbar in judo and I'm pretty sure it is legal. But yeah it is VERY rare and it's use is limited to opening people up for juji when they grab their own wrists. IMHO it is easier to resist than most armlocks, it just hurts like hell.

    Tomas


    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  6. Lucky Seven is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2006 7:30am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I used to do that so people would give me their arm for the armlock, some times people taped from it, I had no idea it was an oficial technique, I just did it cuz it hurts like hell and most people will counter it by trying to straighten the arm, and then its juji gatame time
  7. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2006 9:18am

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as I know its a no go...... shoulder locks are a big no in comps but you can probably get away with anything in randori....

    But in the shiai, it depends on how "up" your ref is.
  8. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2006 3:50pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    I just didn't think it was MEANT to attack the elbow and that the shoulder lock was a product of it. But vice versa.
    The anatomical part of the technique that is attacked is in fact the elbow. Provided things are done right the hooked end of the ulna bone is pulled slightly out of alignment with the indentation in the humerous that forms the elbow joint. It is subtle but when it is one you can feel the pressure on this small piece of bone in the elbow pretty easily. The control of the shoulder comes as a by-product of bracing the humerous to prevent the recipient from getting enough wiggle room to disable the lock.

    If you're getting more shoulder then elbow with the lock something is off in your application. It will still work and most people visually won't be able to tell the difference.
  9. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2006 11:15am

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not going to argue the anatomical differences and physiology of the lock.

    Suffice to say, you are NOT doing something wrong if the shoulder feels more pressure. The only time the elbow will feel more pressure (Renzo v Sakuraba) is when the shoulder/arm is pinned to the floor and rotation is impaired. At that point all force is transfered to the elbow. Otherwise your arm is a crank from the various positions this armlock is used and the shoulder is attacked.
  10. nerveasian is offline

    Registered Member

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    Oct 2005
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2006 7:35am


     Style: Getting mounted

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My instructor has shown me two things you can do to increase the pressure appied the elbow joint:

    1) Turning the victim's wrist so that the palm is facing outward. This actually increases the force applied to both attack points. At the last throwdown I attended, I was able to defend multiple ude-garami attempts simply my turning my wrist inward, which allowed my eblow to bend further and alleviated almost all of the pressure. I actually forgot to mention this to Samurai Steve, so Steve, if you're reading this, that's why I wasn't tapping.
    2) While keeping the victim's forearm parallel to the trunk, pushing it downward toward the hips.

    These are both fairly hard things to do against a resisting opponent because they require a tremendous amount of control of the opponent's arm, but in theory the perfect judo ude-garami does both of these things to attack the elbow.

    As Yrkoon said, most of the time people just get the figure-four and crank your rotator cuff until you tap.
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