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  1. #11
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    Wasn't talking about rendering an opponent unconscious - people tap to a trachea choke 'cause it hurts like a bitch.
    True, true.

    This thread is now about brutal, hate-filled hadaka-jime vs. gentle, loving RNC.

  2. #12
    Yrkoon9's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I direct you to the Sakuraba v Renzo match where Sakuraba's Kimura (Ude Garami) dislocated Renzo's elbow.

  3. #13

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting, the Kimura or Ude Garami is probably my favorite submission, or is at least the one I end up using the most from various positions. However, I have never had an opponent say that it was the elbow he was feeling; its always been the shoulder.

    Same thing with an omoplata, while the uke's arm positioning is similar to what is commonly called a key lock or hammer lock, with the arm bent through the torre's legs, I have never obtained a submission, or been submitted, due to pressure on the elbow, it has always been the shoulder.

    If the primary joint effected by a kimura, ude garami, and an omoplata is the elbow, then I must be doing something wrong technically. Thing that make you go hmmmmmm.....

    Edit: Thats true, Renzo's elbow was fucked up by a classic Kimura which Sakuraba rolled into.......even more amazing is Why didn't Renzo tap? it looked nasty.
    Last edited by GoldenJonas; 2/07/2006 11:48am at .

  4. #14

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The point of all this is that the "elbow only" rule in judo is pretty fuzzy, and that you can do kimura both ways. And that uma plata is legal in judo in spite of the fact that it is more shoulder lock then elbow lock.

    Tomas

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    Interesting, the Kimura or Ude Garami is probably my favorite submission, or is at least the one I end up using the most from various positions. However, I have never had an opponent say that it was the elbow he was feeling; its always been the shoulder.

    Same thing with an omoplata, while the uke's arm positioning is similar to what is commonly called a key lock or hammer lock, with the arm bent through the torre's legs, I have never obtained a submission, or been submitted, due to pressure on the elbow, it has always been the shoulder.

    If the primary joint effected by a kimura, ude garami, and an omoplata is the elbow, then I must be doing something wrong technically. Thing that make you go hmmmmmm.....
    Current stage of death: denial

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I direct you to the Sakuraba v Renzo match where Sakuraba's Kimura (Ude Garami) dislocated Renzo's elbow.
    Yeah, that's what I was gonna bring up, and I know there's a good pic somewhere showing exactly that, I just couldn't find it quickly.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial

  6. #16
    dakotajudo's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    This thread is now about brutal, hate-filled hadaka-jime vs. gentle, loving RNC.
    Well, I brought up hadaka because it's similar to ude-garami in that there are multiple weak points to be attacked, and while some of those weak points are not strictly legal targets in shiai, the techniques are frequently allowed.

    This thread highlights a problem typical of this kind of discussion - the OP starts from a strict interpretation of judo shiai rules. In actual practice, it comes down to a referee's interpretation of the rules.

    There are some people out there who compete by the motto that it's not illegal if the referee doesn't call it - I've met a few in competition.

    So, while the elbow is technically the only joint that can be attacked, I know of several variations that attack the spine, neck, shoulder or knee that are allowed.

    P.S. The book cited in the OP, A-Z of Judo, is a compilation of techniques from many classical texts (i.e. Canon); many of the techniques are not legal in shiai, nor have been for some time.
    Last edited by dakotajudo; 2/07/2006 1:04pm at .

  7. #17

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    There are some people out there who compete by the motto that it's not illegal if the referee doesn't call it - I've met a few in competition.
    That sounds like most of the high ranks in my club. When the sensei isn't looking they will frequently do things which while may look innocent are very nasty. And they will encourage their use in competition.

  8. #18

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes the shoulder rule is not very clear, that can bite you in the ass.

    If you try an omoplata in shiai and you hurt him in the shoulder, you will probably be disqualified, if you do the same technique but hurt him in the arm then you win....some techniques have some subtelties (spelling) that make the pression come to diferent joints, the already said example of omoplata and kimura for example, also some chokes.

    I've seen people aply chokes so badly that the people under taped from the pain of the head lock, not the choke.

  9. #19
    solves problems with violence supporting member
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    does anyone else find that in sparring they have to be quite carefull not to roll too quickly into OP?

    maybe it's that i have torn my rotator cuff, but i always apply pressure slowly with this one (just like i do with heel hooks.)

    yes, they have more of a chance to escape, but i wouldn't wish a shoulder or knee injury on anyone. if they are too dumb to tap to a choke, that's their problem.

  10. #20
    Cassius's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    does anyone else find that in sparring they have to be quite carefull not to roll too quickly into OP?

    maybe it's that i have torn my rotator cuff, but i always apply pressure slowly with this one (just like i do with heel hooks.)

    yes, they have more of a chance to escape, but i wouldn't wish a shoulder or knee injury on anyone. if they are too dumb to tap to a choke, that's their problem.
    If I'm rolling into it to counter a takedown, yes. If I'm transitioning into it from mount, yes. If I'm spinning into it from guard, no.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

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