233255 Bullies, 3689 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 52
Page 1 of 6 1 2345 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Yamabushi is offline
    Yamabushi's Avatar

    Isolated and Confused

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    London, U.K.
    Posts
    198

    Posted On:
    2/06/2006 6:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Omoplata - is it legal in Judo?

    Shoulder locks are forbidden in Judo competition so I was surprised when, flicking through Syd Hoare's book The A-Z of Judo, I came across ashi-sangaku-garami, which looks suspiciously like an omoplata to me.

    Interestingly Hoare says "As the attacker leans forward so the pressure comes on the elbow joint". Eddie Bravo says of the omoplata (in Jiu Jitsu Unleashed) that "With a tremendous amount of pressure being placed on [the victim's]...shoulder, he is forced to tap."

    My guess is that Hoare knows that ashi-sangaku-garami attacks the shoulder but nods it through as an elbow lock.

    I couldn't find a definitive statement outlawing the omoplata in Judo competition but I did find a couple of posts on Judo forums that implied it was. Hoare's book was published in 1994 and it wasn't illegal then (banned techniques are shown but marked as being outlawed).

    I couldn't get onto the IJF website to check there so I was wondering if anyone here had a definitive answer.
    Failing to become awesome since 1976
  2. dramaboy is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,577

    Posted On:
    2/06/2006 6:35pm


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is legal. In Best Judo they call it Ashi Garami (I think).
    Just make sure you get it quick whe you use it in a judo tournament.

    The "elbow joint only" thing in judo is not that clear cut. Uri garami (kimura) also attacks the shoulder joint from certain angles, and yet is completely legal in judo.

    Tomas

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamabushi
    Shoulder locks are forbidden in Judo competition so I was surprised when, flicking through Syd Hoare's book The A-Z of Judo, I came across ashi-sangaku-garami, which looks suspiciously like an omoplata to me.

    Interestingly Hoare says "As the attacker leans forward so the pressure comes on the elbow joint". Eddie Bravo says of the omoplata (in Jiu Jitsu Unleashed) that "With a tremendous amount of pressure being placed on [the victim's]...shoulder, he is forced to tap."

    My guess is that Hoare knows that ashi-sangaku-garami attacks the shoulder but nods it through as an elbow lock.

    I couldn't find a definitive statement outlawing the omoplata in Judo competition but I did find a couple of posts on Judo forums that implied it was. Hoare's book was published in 1994 and it wasn't illegal then (banned techniques are shown but marked as being outlawed).

    I couldn't get onto the IJF website to check there so I was wondering if anyone here had a definitive answer.
    Current stage of death: denial
  3. Yrkoon9 is offline
    Yrkoon9's Avatar

    Brock Sampson

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Land of the Living
    Posts
    4,590

    Posted On:
    2/06/2006 7:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've seen it in several Judo books. Most notably in Best Judo.

    So I would say its legal. The Judo 'rule' saying armlocks may only attack the elbow joint is a joke.
  4. nerveasian is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    218

    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 2:56am


     Style: Getting mounted

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The canon of acceptable submission holds seems to vary a lot from place to place. There are probably some tournaments that will actually disqualify you for targeting the shoulder, but there are definitely a bunch who will allow it, especially when confronted with an illustration from a reputable sourcebook.

    I was taught the omoplata as sankaku-garami, and my instructor said that, like ude-garami, it's in theory supposed to target the elbow but in practice ends up wrenching the shoulder because of imprecise application. He said that as long as you can get a tap, the judge will call ippon and seldom will it be challenged.
  5. fanatical is offline
    fanatical's Avatar

    Hi, guys

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    1,291

    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 9:00am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ude garami at no point targets the elbow.

    Neither does the omo plata.

    Calling them elbow locks are just plain wrong.
    More human than human is our motto.
  6. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    633

    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 10:30am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    Ude garami at no point targets the elbow.

    Neither does the omo plata.

    Calling them elbow locks are just plain wrong.
    I wouldn't be so absolutist about that. I remember a judo tournament, about a year ago, one guy fought off ude-garami for a good bit of the match.

    Had to wrap his elbow after the match - that's what got hurt.

    Ude garami done properly does attack the elbow; done in a rush, it attacks the shoulder. Kinda like hadaka-jime - done right it's a carotid strangle, but most people in competition do the choke version to get the submission quickly.
  7. dramaboy is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,577

    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 10:37am


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    Ude garami at no point targets the elbow.
    It does from certain angle.
    From judoinfo.com:
    " Udegarami can be done to apply pressure to the shoulder or the elbow. In Judo we try to achieve the armbar pressure on the elbow since it is the more efficient and effective version. The two key points that make ude garami work effectively against the elbow when you are in the basic udegarami position shown below are: 1) the arm should not be bent very far (90 degrees is too much), and 2) the elbow should be pulled towards the belt."

    This is shoulder http://www.grapplearts.com/Images/Gr...ra-5-small.jpg
    and this is elbow
    http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuragracie.jpg
    (remember, Helio's elbow was broken)

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  8. PointyShinyBurn is online now
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    4,221

    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 10:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    Ude garami done properly does attack the elbow; done in a rush, it attacks the shoulder.
    In my experience you torque the elbow in proportion to how far their hand is from the shoulder. Either target works, so I don't know which would be more 'correct'.
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    Kinda like hadaka-jime - done right it's a carotid strangle, but most people in competition do the choke version to get the submission quickly.
    Carotid strangles are faster than air chokes as far as I'm aware? I know I can hold my breath for a quite a bit longer than I can take a locked RNC.
  9. fanatical is offline
    fanatical's Avatar

    Hi, guys

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    1,291

    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 10:50am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On ude garami. I suppose you're right. But having control of the arm when not keeping it at more than approximately 90 degrees requires nothing but strength imho. You can just bend the elbow over your knee too, but it's not a very mechanical or opportune method.

    I just didn't think it was MEANT to attack the elbow and that the shoulder lock was a product of it. But vice versa.
    More human than human is our motto.
  10. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    633

    Posted On:
    2/07/2006 10:54am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    In my experience you torque the elbow in proportion to how far their hand is from the shoulder. Either target works, so I don't know which would be more 'correct'.
    The kata version of ude-garami limits how much the shoulder can be rotated - but you can bend the elbow at 90 degrees to its normal plane of movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    Carotid strangles are faster than air chokes as far as I'm aware? I know I can hold my breath for a quite a bit longer than I can take a locked RNC.
    Wasn't talking about rendering an opponent unconscious - people tap to a trachea choke 'cause it hurts like a bitch.
    Last edited by dakotajudo; 2/07/2006 10:57am at .
Page 1 of 6 1 2345 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.