Do you agree with this statement?

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 5:28am

I'm saving that picture for future use.

That's fucking awsome.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 5:32am

Originally Posted by I Choke You

No, that guy, Kimo, got fucked up by Royce, despite being younger, stronger, and roidier than JFS.

Royce was too severely injured to carry on to his next fight afterwards. Kimo was still on his feet and jumped into to the ring to make that point.

This thread's getting silly now. I'd just like everybody to start using the word 'bonch' as an insult more often.

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 5:37am

Royce was worn out. Kimo would've left with a broken arm, if Royce didn't let go at the tap.

Who would've had it worse?

Do you just deny the effectiveness of breaking a limb in a fight?

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 5:44am

Originally Posted by I Choke You

No, that guy, Kimo, got fucked up by Royce, despite being younger, stronger, and roidier than JFS.

I saw that match on PPV. Royce won with the well-known Gracie ponytail grab to armbar.

http://bjj.org/images/royce_kimo.jpg

Not that we should question Royce's dominance over Kimo.

http://bjj.org/susumu/ufc-book/royce-vs-kimo.jpg

It's a legit win, but hardly a triumph for the technical strengths of GJJ. Royce just snatched it from somebody with no fight training whatsoever.

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 5:51am

I think the more telling point is that Royce won at all with such a vast strength, weight and striking disadvantage.

**Hurt** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 5:53am

Originally Posted by Omar

That's what I mean about the ignorance about what he trains. JFS is one of the truly rare breed who have convinced me that have quality Hung Gar. The good stuff has a very strong stand up grappling game. Hung Gar is 80% right on the blurry edge between grappling and striking. No groundwork but I mean the standing work is mostly from within the clinch and most strikes assume you already have a hold of the other guy. The one place I really excelled in my teeny tiny grappling experience was in grip fighting and it was pure Hung Gar.

In what way does way does that at all differ it from muay thai clinch work? And in what way does that do anything but lend credibilty to the belief that someone with experiece would get into grappling range and take the fight to the ground? Seems to me like you're way too eager to defend this guy. Especially when you're making claims that sound in direct opposition to what he's said on the subject. Another strange thing is you're admitting to having very little grappling experice, and that it was primarily clinch work yet start off by telling a grappler he's completely ignorant of the topic being dicussed.

Royce is hardly any kind of a great takedown artist. He didn't specialize in taking down skilled strikers. He just specialized in BJJ and all the so called strikers who showed up in the first several UFC's had **** for base. They were nothing like the traditional guys I have worked with who have been immersed in a throwing world for decades. I could take down the vast majority of strikers I have met if I was willing to go down with them like that.

This is really confusing. How many of his fights didn't go to the ground again?

How long did Cropcop have to prepare before he made the cross over from K1 to Pride? I know he has fantastic coaches and by this time has probably beome pretty decent although last I heard he was only like a BJJ blue or something.

I don't get the question making a cross over. You could mean a few things but I would feel dumb trying to cover every base, so if you would please clarify on that, I'll try n' answer best I can. For the second part yes, I believe Fabricio Werdum claimed a while ago CroCop has the skills of a blue belt.

What kind of grappling did Chuck Liddell have? Lots of ring experience but what were his credentials not now but whenever he grabbed his first UFC championship?

Wrestling, he wrestled in college and I'm sure he kept up practice though all of his MMA career, it's no new advent. Tiny edit in here, he also does supliment with (or maybe switched some focus to) BJJ and is said to be very skilled in that area. And he's on his first championship about to have his second defense tonight.

Why is Royce the underdog in his next fight? (or did it already happen? Must not have because ICY is still talking about the upcoming pictures of his likely swirly.)

I hasn't happened yet. And there are a slew of reasons. A few to take into consideration are Hughes is not only the most dominate champion in MMA history (besides Fedor Emelianenko) but also one who's shown constant improvement through his career (especially in recent time) and is generally a superior athlete with monsterous strength for his size. Now on Royce's side he's 40, 1-1-2 in the past six years and has never looked as inspired as he once did in his UFC days. But those aren't the only factors, you also have to consider how the rules hinder someone with Royce's style: the stands-up, the five minute rounds, the fact there will only be three round instead of five, and the scoring. In Hughes own words he gives himself a 99% chance to take the decision.

But I'll close with the fact that very few are counting him out and many have him as a favorite.

**Jitsuman** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 5:56am

Originally Posted by Omar

That's what I mean about the ignorance about what he trains. JFS is one of the truly rare breed who have convinced me that have quality Hung Gar. The good stuff has a very strong stand up grappling game. Hung Gar is 80% right on the blurry edge between grappling and striking. No groundwork but I mean the standing work is mostly from within the clinch and most strikes assume you already have a hold of the other guy. The one place I really excelled in my teeny tiny grappling experience was in grip fighting and it was pure Hung Gar.

I will be happy to eat my words if some average grappler like Os shows up and takes him down but Hung Gar is not known for that kind of weakness. I expect Omega could do it. Probably Asia as well. Not Osiris. He has neither the experience or the size and his striking game is too weak to get past JFS's fists anyways.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Royce is hardly any kind of a great takedown artist. He didn't specialize in taking down skilled strikers. He just specialized in BJJ and all the so called strikers who showed up in the first several UFC's had **** for base. They were nothing like the traditional guys I have worked with who have been immersed in a throwing world for decades. I could take down the vast majority of strikers I have met if I was willing to go down with them like that.

How long did Cropcop have to prepare before he made the cross over from K1 to Pride? I know he has fantastic coaches and by this time has probably beome pretty decent although last I heard he was only like a BJJ blue or something.

What kind of grappling did Chuck Liddell have? Lots of ring experience but what were his credentials not now but whenever he grabbed his first UFC championship?

Why is Royce the underdog in his next fight? (or did it already happen? Must not have because ICY is still talking about the upcoming pictures of his likely swirly.)

You have some worthwhile debatable points and I'll respond just for kicks.

1. We are both ignorant to his training, as we've never actually seen the full extent (or even partial) of it. Just like not all TKD/Judo/BJJ etc. is equal, surely you can agree that just because somebody trains in hung gar they might not have a good clinch game. As a matter of record this is the first time I've heard about it.
I'm betting anyone with a bit of Judo (BTW allmost the Gracies have crosstrained in it, and BJJ uses much of the same technique) has a better, more rounded clinch game. Striking often puts you off ballance when you clinch, and gets your arms caught in bad positions against a good grappler. it's easy for a decent wrestler or judoka to get underhooks when the other guy is striking at you. Guys like couture make 'dirty boxing' work so well, because they have a great understanding of the clinch grappling game, as to avoid making these mistakes. JFS doesn't.

2. Skill is the biggest factor factor, yes. and I think while Os could possibly win OR lose this, I think it would come down to JFS being around 240ish and having a huge weight advantage considering Os is what? a BJJ white/blue belt, weighing 150? I *highly* doubt that a competant grappler of similar size would have the least bit of trouble taking JFS down.

3. Royce does and did indeed train at taking strikers down. Much of his training for the first UFC revolved aroud this. He knew he'd be fighting a lot of them and prepared. He'd also been fighting 'dojo challenges' years before this, and had done it all before. DL (though you've probably seen it) "Royce Vs. gung fu master" (jason deluca) and you'll hear Rorion say in the background "blah blah blah, it is almost impossible for a striker to remain standing against gracie jiu jitsu." Does Royce have good takedows? Depends on what you mean. He's *very* good at getting fights to the ground, he just does it, well, "poorly". Meaning that a good takedown guy will take the fight to the ground, and land in a dominant position. Royce throws himself at his opponent and drags him to the ground. Ending up many tmes in shitty position, but working from there. (He'll 'pull guard' a lot also.) Pulling guard would work fine in a hypothetical JFS match, as JFS has literally no quality BJJ training, and his base sucks.

4. Chuck wrestled for most of his life. High-school, college, and after. Not sure what his record was, but it was probably pretty decent. Most people dont know He wrestled to this degree, because they never see him shoot a takedown. He uses his wrestling to remain on his feet, quite well obviously. Check his first appearence in the UFC, he was wearing wrestling shoes.

5. Cro-crop has only been training BJJ for a short time, but it's quite obvious hes been working his sprawl much longer than that. It's too damn good. This is not a case of the average striker being able to avoid the takedown easily, this is a case of Cro-Cop having an amazing sprawl, for anyone. Kit Kope is a muay thai guy who's been training his takedown defense for about 2 years now. on the last spike TV UFC event he got taken down at will by lemony fresh TUF fighter Kenny Florian, who's takedows blow.

6. Royce is fighting Hughes his next fight. Matt isjust plain ol' better rounded than Royce. Still though, Royce might shock us with this one, as Hughes is vulnerable to good submission guys and wont be able to knock out or really damage Royce with his G&P (no one really ever has). My prediction, boring decision.

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 6:15am

****. I just settled in for dinner (noodles) and a Thai zombie movie that won't play on my DVD player but will on my laptop and suddenly out come 2 back to back posts that are really worth arguing/talking about...responding to anyways. I'll take the first one, admittedly in a hurry. Dinner's getting cold.

Originally Posted by Hurt

In what way does way does that at all differ it from muay thai clinch work? And in what way does that do anything but lend credibilty to the belief that someone with experiece would get into grappling range and take the fight to the ground? Seems to me like you're way too eager to defend this guy. Especially when you're making claims that sound in direct opposition to what he's said on the subject. Another strange thing is you're admitting to having very little grappling experice, and that it was primarily clinch work yet start off by telling a grappler he's completely ignorant of the topic being dicussed.

Very different from Muay Thai clinch work. No neck wrestling. Just apples and oranges on that one. No time to go into detail right now. Most of this response is just semantics. Confusing "grappling" with "groundwork" which is what I really mean by no experience. Same thing for JFS. He has minimal ground work. Hung Gar has it's own version of stand up grappling and it's not very throw oriented but technically if you are grabbing, you are grappling. One difference between the Muay Thai clinch work and the Hung Gar stuff is that Hugn Gar is not trying to set up knees. Both feet stay on the ground, generally you stay pretty low and there's a huge emphasis on keeping a stable base. There are some similarities but in Hung Gar feet are for sweeping or helping punch while someone is trying to hold your arms or neck.

This is really confusing. How many of his fights didn't go to the ground again?

Not relevant. I said his opponents sucked as regarding takedown defense. How many of Crocop's fights go to the ground? How often is he able to get up again with his "blue belt equivalent"? How about Chuck? How about a Sak. vs. Royce? It happens, but it is not ineveitable as it would seem from watching UFC 1-4. I'd say eventually if will happen to everyone. I am not arguing that point. But it doesn't happen in every fight. There is even a consensus around here that BJJ is not known for takedowns. They suck. That's why so many people resort to pulling guard and dragging their opponent down with them. In the context of Osiris vs. JFS. even that is not likely to work as JFS is a powerfully built man who weighs about 40 lbs. more than Os so he could probably stand up just fine with Os hanging off of him. Just look at the Kimbo vs. Royce pics that were just posted. Still no takedown. The first UFC fight with DeLucia where he broke Jason's arm. Did it while Jason was still standing up and Royce was hanging off the arm upside down. Great skills.....just not at takedowns or throws.

I don't get the question making a cross over. You could mean a few things but I would feel dumb trying to cover every base, so if you would please clarify on that, I'll try n' answer best I can. For the second part yes, I believe Fabricio Werdum claimed a while ago CroCop has the skills of a blue belt.

I meant that Crocop was originally a K1 fighter. He fought just K1 for quite a while before he decided to try his hand at MMA. So when he had his first Pride match..... but you actually already answered my question. Thanks.

Wrestling, he wrestled in college and I'm sure he kept up practice though all of his MMA career, it's no new advent. And he's on his first championship about to have his second defense tonight.

That's about the same exeperience as JFS is claiming. Some college wrestling. Now I know how Chuck has grown and learned on the job and all but it goes back to my point that you don't need to be a groundwork expert to do well under MMA rules. I think a little goes a long way.

I hasn't happened yet. ...

But I'll close with the fact that very few are counting him out and many have him as a favorite.

Most of that I knew already. Just reminding people how far massive strength and power can go and how much the game has changed that someone like Royce, regardless of the reasons, can be the underdog.

I can't resist. I have to respond to Jitsuman before I settle in for my flick.

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 6:33am

1. I agree with most of your points here except for a couple details.

This may be the first time you've heard of the Hung Gar thing but I spent 8 years in it. I have also seen PLENTY of Hung Gar that just doesn't cut it. Based on my uh...15 years or so in CMA, 8 of it in Hung Gar specifically, he has convinced me based on a number or observations that he has got "the real deal". Partly it's the depth of technical knowledge he has displayed. Partly it's who has accepted him into their "inner circles" and partly it's the confirmed wealth of actual fighting experience so I know he hasn't got his head up his ass.

Striking often puts you off ballance when you clinch, and gets your arms caught in bad positions against a good grappler. it's easy for a decent wrestler or judoka to get underhooks when the other guy is striking at you.

And that is exactly why I like Hung Gar and the traditional CMA method as opposed to what is more accepted here at Bullshido, namely, only the kind of CMA that discards everything distinctive about it and just tries to emulate "regular" kickboxing. No bridge, no base, no stance work, no internal harmonies, no "weaver's back", no integrated use of the traditional grappling stuff because everything that they don't understand just gets thrown out baby with the bathwater. It's overspecialization to the point of obselecence.

2. Agreed except for the idea that Os would even have a chance. That's why I say Asia or Omega would take him. Os? rofl. He's like 160 or 165 and I don't think he even has his blue yet. He might but then he would still be a newish blue and I am ok on the ground with blue belts that I outweigh.

3. I doubt that JFS's base sucks. Don't forget I still gave Royce at least 10:1 odds over JFS so we are quibbling over details here. You did sum up what I meant about his suck ass takedowns. He takes it to the ground even giving up position because he is so confident his superiority there is so massive he can keep it on the ground. But WTF is this supposed to mean?:

as JFS has literally no quality BJJ training, and his base sucks.

You didn't even say "ground training" or "grappling training". lol. As if the only thing on the planet that will help you regain your feet is BJJ. Shooter, a friend of mine, has been on here and he has done just fine in MMA against wrestlers and BJJ people with no training other than Taijiquan and a smattering of high school wrestling. His ground work is virtually completely self taught.

4. I knew all that. Not spectacular. Barely more than JFS has got.

5. So that just goes to show that different people have different abilities. I love how people always make excuses for Crocop and his sprawl. Maybe he just had a talent for it. Maybe not all standup fighters have shitty base's. And the Kit Kope story is just a single anecdote. I have other anecdotes of people who never specifically trained sprawling per se but did much better.

6. We are in total agreement here.

**liokault** · Posted On: 2/04/2006 7:03am

Originally Posted by I Choke You

I think the more telling point is that Royce won at all with such a vast strength, weight and striking disadvantage.

Well, bit of a change here.

We have gone from- Royce kills strikers and once they are on the ground the contest is over to, its telling that Royce won at all against a stronger guy.

The fight against Kimo was not easy for Royce, even though Kimo probably didn't understand the concept that you could fight on the ground, let alone train for it (or indeed against it).