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  1. Te No Kage! is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2006 9:46pm

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     Style: BJJ/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Guard jumping/slamming and Judo

    I have been wondering a while what basis they use to call a guard jump an ippon for the other guy. I stumbled upon this at judoinfo.com and I thought I'd share it with the rest of y'all. Apparently what we call a "guard slam" ala Rampage Jackson is called a Daki Age in Judo. I never knew this before....

    Anyways, you can read about it here...... http://judoinfo.com/dakiage.htm


    what I found most interesting was this little excerpt....
    Around 1925, Tsunetane Oda welcomed Daki-Age to become a competition waza from his unique viewpoint as one of the Kosen gurus. He said "it would eliminate clumsy Sankaku or Juji-Gatame for fear of being lifted up for ippon." He thought Daki-Age was possible because people were generally poor in grappling techniques. He wrote, "To prepare for Mae-Sankaku (triangle choke from the front), one has to first kick the leg of an opponent to lie him flat thus avoiding to be lifted up or flipped over."
    I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but perhaps Judo was aiming for more realism when they made this rule -- to make a rule to point out that jumping guard or allowing yourself to be picked up is not a good idea because you can be slammed on your neck

    but on the other hand.... it's not realistic to say a fight is ended when you're thrown or slammed for that matter, plenty of us have been slammed and continued on to win by submission (Fedor vs. Randleman), but others have certainly lost by being slammed (Rampage Jackson vs. Ricardo Arona)

    anyway, I didn't want to make this thread another debate on why Judo rules suck because they favor the thrower (which they do). I just thought some of you may find this interesting.
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
  2. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2006 9:56pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you pull guard properly the other guy's base will be broken and the amplitude of the slam will be minor at best.
  3. Te No Kage! is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2006 10:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    usually if I want to pull guard, I'll just do a really sloppy sumi gaeshi or tomoe nage

    at least then you're pulling him off his balance and he falls into your guard, AND you won't get that counted against you in a Judo match

    What this is specifically talking about is either you pick someone up that has you in guard OR you jump guard onto someone standing up -- both of these instances will result in a loss for the guy that has guard
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
  4. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2006 11:29pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guard jump is not daikage.
    As with any throw, you have to initiate the move to score.
    If the guy jumps guard, he initiated the move, no score. I think there's a rule that you can not go from standing to newaza without attempting a throw, so he may get a penalty actually.
    Daikage is when you are in somebody's guard, stand up, lift him and slam him to the mat.
    And it is illegal since late 1970 I believe.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  5. Te No Kage! is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2006 12:42am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what I gathered from reading the article is that if you are able to lift someone above your shoulders then it is an automatic ippon. This is because of the ability of someone to do a daki age. Since Daki Age is currently banned, all you have to do is lift someone up in guard. If someone jumps onto me into guard and I'm still standing, and I lift them up above my shoulders then I get the ippon because I could have done a daki age. That's what I gathered from the article.
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
  6. Te No Kage! is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2006 12:44am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    this is the part I was talking about

    In 1925, the Butokukai ruled that once an opponent was lifted up to the shoulder level, an ippon should be called. At this point in time, it was allowed to slam uke on the tatami with no penalty. By awarding ippon however, there was no need for uke to be slammed. Both the Kodokan (in 1961) and the IJF (in 1967) applied the same rule, to call ippon when uke was lifted up to tori's shoulder level. Even then there was no penalty for slamming uke down on the tatami.

    The IJF (in 1981) and the Kodokan (in 1985) took Daki-Age out as a competition technique, matte was called as soon as uke was lifted off the mat, and a penalty was subsequently added for slamming uke onto the mat.

    Apart from the safety issue in Daki-Age, there is a tacit rule in the Kodokan that no throwing technique is allowed from the mat position. For example, if Tomoe-Nage is done in a double motion where a tori, already lying on the mat, finishes by throwing uke, it's not considered as a valid throw.
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
  7. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2006 1:24am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think lifting your opponent from the mat (after he's been in newaza) amounts to mate, no matter what situation. That rule about lifting above shoulders is old, something the oldtimers use to muse about. Not any more. I'm pretty sure that's how it's been for more than 10 years now.
    I'm competing tomorrow (****, TODAY) in Shufu Open in College Park MD, I'll check.

    Tomas


    Quote Originally Posted by Te No Kage!
    what I gathered from reading the article is that if you are able to lift someone above your shoulders then it is an automatic ippon. This is because of the ability of someone to do a daki age. Since Daki Age is currently banned, all you have to do is lift someone up in guard. If someone jumps onto me into guard and I'm still standing, and I lift them up above my shoulders then I get the ippon because I could have done a daki age. That's what I gathered from the article.
    Current stage of death: denial
  8. chaosexmachina is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2006 1:25am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's actually very interesting...
    "The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall." - Mitch Hedberg

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  9. Te No Kage! is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2006 1:42am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    I think lifting your opponent from the mat (after he's been in newaza) amounts to mate, no matter what situation. That rule about lifting above shoulders is old, something the oldtimers use to muse about. Not any more. I'm pretty sure that's how it's been for more than 10 years now.
    I'm competing tomorrow (****, TODAY) in Shufu Open in College Park MD, I'll check.

    Tomas
    good luck and try to end in submission just so they can whine that you're a BJJ guy crashing their tournament
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
  10. Ridder is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2006 2:11pm


     Style: Judo, Wrestling, Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Te No Kage!
    good luck and try to end in submission just so they can whine that you're a BJJ guy crashing their tournament
    I think the thought process behind this is that if you're competing in a Judo Tournament, you should , at least, adhere to the Judo ruleset.

    Yes, jumping guard or trying to go straight to the mat without even attempting a throw will earn a penalty. It actually happens we have a few BJJ guys aroung here who, to the ire of the many Judoka, have stacked up quite a few tallies in the "submission" category and even more under "shido".

    If you want straight up newaza, go to a BJJ (or whatever) tourny. There's a reason we start a match standing up.
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