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  1. Antisocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 2:43pm


     Style: FiFiFu

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    How did the Japanese JJ fighters fare against Western wrestlers?

    I know of couple documented matches from early 1900's but in both cases, there was a significant weight difference between them, that I can but discount the Japanese losses to the weight advatange.

    I'm interested in matches where there was no significant weight disadvantage on either side.
  2. Cdnronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:04pm


     Style: judo, parenting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocrates
    How did the Japanese JJ fighters fare against Western wrestlers?

    I'm interested in matches where there was no significant weight disadvantage on either side.
    Check out Yukio Tani and "Raku"Uyenishi and their successes in the British music halls. They were pretty consistent in their winning, taking on all challengers.

    Of course the usual question, is how successful where they under a different set of rules? The wrestling definition of a pin is a different idea then win by submission, the jacket also makes adifference when you are fighting wrestlers unfamiliar with wearing one while competing.
  3. Antisocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:13pm


     Style: FiFiFu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin
    Check out Yukio Tani and "Raku"Uyenishi and their successes in the British music halls. They were pretty consistent in their winning, taking on all challengers.

    Of course the usual question, is how successful where they under a different set of rules? The wrestling definition of a pin is a different idea then win by submission, the jacket also makes adifference when you are fighting wrestlers unfamiliar with wearing one while competing.
    Wouldn't wrestlers have gotten familiar after a while, with the different ruleset? I'm thinking it'd be like UFC, where the latecomers would have some reasonable expectations of what to expect.

    EDIT: I've googled Tani and his bouts sound exceedingly impressive. From the articles, it does appear that people did get familiar with the ruleset and the jacket, especially those who came back time after time for rematches. There was this sorry chap who tore his muscles to last fifteen minutes against Tani.

    A related question is whether Tani and co.'s matches show JJJ was better than wrestling of the day?
    Last edited by Antisocrates; 3/01/2006 3:25pm at .
  4. Mr.Mundane is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:24pm


     Style: Kung Fu

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    Bullshido in the martial arts is a long honored tradition, actually.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 3:45pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Tani and Uyenishi fought hundreds, if not thousands of challenge matches in their day; originally as the champions of E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu Club, and then out on their own as professional wrestlers. Yukio Tani, in particular, became a genuine celebrity and was written into plays and popular songs of the era.

    The best source for info. on Tani's career as a challenge wrestler is Graham Noble's article - http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm

    For a good overview of the "Japanese invasion" and this first MMA craze in England (1899-1914) see the Bartitsu Compendium - http://www.lulu.com/content/138834

    To the best of my knowledge, Tani and Uyenishi always required their opponents to wear jackets and the fights were always fought to submissions rather than pin falls.

    Another instructor at the Bartitsu Club, a Swiss wrestler named Armand Cherpillod, once goaded Tani into fighting him in a freestyle match (presumably without jackets), which Cherpillod reportedly won.

    Tani's reign as a music-hall champion lasted until 1904, when he was soundly defeated by a recent import from Japan, the heavier and more experienced Taro Miyake. The public pretty much lost interest in Tani after that defeat, but the two men eventually teamed up as Jiujitsu instructors, opening a dojo and continuing to fight on the music-hall circuit.

    Plenty more on early (c. 1900) MMA challenge matches between jiujitsu and wrestling, boxing, etc. -

    http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_edgren1_0300.htm
    http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm
    http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlee.htm
    Last edited by DdlR; 3/01/2006 3:58pm at .
  6. Antisocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 4:06pm


     Style: FiFiFu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Tani and Uyenishi fought hundreds, if not thousands of challenge matches in their day; originally as the champions of E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu Club, and then out on their own as professional wrestlers. Yukio Tani, in particular, became a genuine celebrity and was written into plays and popular songs of the era.

    The best source for info. on Tani's career as a challenge wrestler is Graham Noble's article - http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm

    For a good overview of the "Japanese invasion" and this first MMA craze in England (1899-1914) see the Bartitsu Compendium - http://www.lulu.com/content/138834

    To the best of my knowledge, Tani and Uyenishi always required their opponents to wear jackets and the fights were always fought to submissions rather than pin falls.

    Another instructor at the Bartitsu Club, a Swiss wrestler named Armand Cherpillod, once goaded Tani into fighting him in a freestyle match (presumably without jackets), which Cherpillod reportedly won.

    Tani's reign as a music-hall champion lasted until 1904, when he was soundly defeated by a recent import from Japan, the heavier and more experienced Taro Miyake. The public pretty much lost interest in Tani after that defeat, but the two men eventually teamed up as Jiujitsu instructors, opening a dojo and continuing to fight on the music-hall circuit.

    Plenty more on early (c. 1900) MMA challenge matches between jiujitsu and wrestling, boxing, etc. -

    http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_edgren1_0300.htm
    http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm
    http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlee.htm
    Interesting articles, especially the bit about how karate kicks actually worked for once in a streetfight.

    BTW, wouldn't the submission and jacket ruleset have been more realistic than the pin fall rule, since they simulate real combat more?

    Also, as I've stated above, it doesn't seem like the different ruleset gave that much of advantage to Tani, given the length of time he held these matches (giving the English the time to adjust), and any advantage he got was offset by the weight disadvantage he operated under. I think we can't underestimate how much weight played against Tani, despite his wins. Jacket or no jacket, such a slight little fella must've been very skilled to prevail against much bigger opponents well experienced in wrestling.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 7:37pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocrates
    Interesting articles, especially the bit about how karate kicks actually worked for once in a streetfight.

    BTW, wouldn't the submission and jacket ruleset have been more realistic than the pin fall rule, since they simulate real combat more?
    That was part of the selling point of jiujitsu at the time; the idea that it was "no holds barred" and thus more suitable for real self defense than the traditional British forms of wrestling. Lancashire style (catch as catch can) was a special case in that it did involve pain holds, although these were normally used to maneuver your opponent into a pin rather than as submissions per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocrates
    Also, as I've stated above, it doesn't seem like the different ruleset gave that much of advantage to Tani, given the length of time he held these matches (giving the English the time to adjust), and any advantage he got was offset by the weight disadvantage he operated under. I think we can't underestimate how much weight played against Tani, despite his wins. Jacket or no jacket, such a slight little fella must've been very skilled to prevail against much bigger opponents well experienced in wrestling.
    He didn't always win, but there's little doubt that Tani was an excellent jiujitsuka. Bear in mind that he was only 19 years old when he arrived in England, too!
  8. Cdnronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 9:20pm


     Style: judo, parenting

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    The first article suggests that Fairbairn's shanghai period Defendu may have been influenced by McGlaglen's visit and demonstration. McGlaglen's visit may have set in motion the need for official self defese training for the SMP.

    In a letter submitted by Fairbairn to the Commisioner of Police 8 December 1914

    "from March 1914 classes have been held for the instruction of jiu jitsu, at these classes I have personally taught 37 foriegners, 84 Sikhs, 26 Sikh and Chineses warders and 184 Chinese recruits."

    "'I hold several certificates for jiu-jitsu, n this connection, I may state that capt. McGlaglen, an acknowledged expert in jiu jitsu, has been good enough to state that my knowledge, was, from a police point of view, equal to his own."

    Source. The legend of W.E. Fairbairn Gentleman & Warrior. by Peter Robins.

    I'll dig up Leo's home guard manual and detail his ability to revive the dead(very rare to see in a WWII manual).
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 10:20pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

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    Cpt Leo. LOL the man who impersonated his brothers to get attention.

    I have is Police JJ book somewhere.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
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