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  1. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 12:49pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chance
    OK I still say you are ignoring my points and I can't make them any clearer, Capoeira is about history and culture you haven't commented on what I said about that, you just keep criticising me personally.

    Don't start lecturing me on which kicks are considered aggressive in Capoeira because I don't care. A martial art is about winning. Those kicks were absorbed into Capoeira by Mestre bimba as I understand it when he created what we now refer to as Capoeria Regional.

    Popquiz hot shot if this thread is about evasive manouevres do you know why there is no active blocking in Capoeira? Once again it relates back to the history of the art, displaced Afro Carribbean people and their culture. That's why the comment about the film Rize is relevant.

    I would like independant clarification from someone on Bullshido who is from Brazil but the way I was told it there is a saying in Brazil that "milk and fruit(I forget which fruit) are poison when taken together" The reason for this saying is the answer to your entire thread about the evasive characteristic of Capoeira.

    Once again separate issue don't you think that as someone who breakdances I would be overjoyed finding a martial art that compliments that? But it's not a martial art, it does not stack up against boxing, Muay Thai or BJJ.
    There's active blocking in at least some capoeira. I have personally seen a group in san antonio texas sparring at a cultural festival, and they certainly had active blocking, at least movments in their demos that corresponded to it.

    Also, re your earlier post regard "thai gyms"

    OOOHHHH a kick you can feel through a shield? Gee that must take a lot of force!

    Finally, old brazilians love history almost as much as young american ninjas, from the sounds of things! Why on earth, what earthly purpose, would there be for an underfed slave with brittle bones?

    And if you can't throw a cres. kick at a heavy bag, maybe you need to up your milk rations.

    You're at least as big a bullshitter as the OP.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  2. Coyote is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 12:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chance
    Capoeira is about history and culture, history and culture tells us who we are. It is very insulting for you to ridicule saying "what is this **** about milk and fruit" i hope you feel embarressed when I explain it.

    As told to me by my Brazilian Mestre:

    The original Brazilian Indians made 'bad' slaves becasue they died too quickly from forced labour, the African slaves took longer to die so they were displaced from Africa and brought to Brazil. Each slave was assigned rations, a ration of milk which they desperately needed for healthy bones. The slaves saw all the fruit on the trees and thought why don't we eat this as well? The slave masters probably didn't think much of having slaves that didn't need to work for ration of milk any longer. They were told that if they eat the fruit and the milk it would mix in their stomach and poison them. That is some serious messed up **** right there. So we end up with the situation where the slaves have weak bone density from a small milk ration, that's why there is no active blocking in Capoeira, bone on bone contact had to be avoided.

    If I'm wrong I'm wrong, i'm passing on what was taught to me, as it was taught to me, that's all anyone can do.

    You should really question your block capital statement "once again, CAPOEIRA IS A GAME WITH MARTIAL ARTS TECHNIQUES THROWN IN!!"

    I was working on this post when I read are you a closet Capoeirista. Are you dense when it's obvious from my previous posts I know Capoeira techniques and have actually tried them out on a heavy bag??
    I too, am only passing on what I have been taught.
    I am not debating the fact that Capoeira, or any martial art for that matter, is not to some extent about the culture and history that influenced it. My story obviously comes from a later date in the history of Brazil, and that may be why I have never heard of yours. I am saying that when you make something entirely about the history and culture, you blind yourself to any enjoyment you might get out of the experience.
    Yes, it is obvious that you are a Capoeirista (to some extent) but I find myself questioning how someone can show such contempt for an art that they obviously know so much about. As for using all caps, perhaps that was not the best mode of expression. I hope that I have better explained my position in the preceding paragraph.
  3. Coyote is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 12:53pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    There's active blocking in at least some capoeira. I have personally seen a group in san antonio texas sparring at a cultural festival, and they certainly had active blocking, at least movments in their demos that corresponded to it.

    Also, re your earlier post regard "thai gyms"

    OOOHHHH a kick you can feel through a shield? Gee that must take a lot of force!

    Finally, old brazilians love history almost as much as young american ninjas, from the sounds of things! Why on earth, what earthly purpose, would there be for an underfed slave with brittle bones?

    And if you can't throw a cres. kick at a heavy bag, maybe you need to up your milk rations.

    You're at least as big a bullshitter as the OP.
    God, how I love you for posting that.
  4. Bang! is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 12:53pm

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     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is active blocking. In some schools, they will slap at your face any time your guard is down. Not exactly the ultimate, considering that there's typically no contact, but awareness counts for something. That being said, they supposedly hold bautisados (baptisms) where you have to fight several (or all) students with full contact.
  5. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 1:00pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chance
    Nobody knows the history of Capoeira for sure, the records were burned only a few survive.
    There is no way it stacks up against boxing, Muay Thai or BJJ. Have you tried any of those circular crescent kicks on a heavy bag that would simulate using them on someone coming at you? I have, you nearly break your knee from the side force on the joint.

    Razors? Puh-lease do you train with knives like in Escrima? No, so that's out the door straight away.

    Separate issue, how Capoeira is marketed ouside of Brazil. Right everyone you've got to sing the songs in Portueguese, Bongo accompanyment. "Why?" "It's important to respect the culture and history of Capoeira" "What are we singing about?" "Orishas" "From Candomble?" "er" "Didn't the displaced Africans disguide their religion into Roman Catholocism to avoid persecution" "er" "Isn't Candomble connected to Vodun (Voodoo)" "NO! NO! Capoeira isn't a religion! No it's nothing to do with that my fearful of Voodoo European chums!" "So why do we have to sing the songs then could it be it's good marketing all smiling, clapping along?" WHITEWASH ALERT

    As I said in another post " There is some documentation of the undergroung "gangsta" period but I think this is misinterpreted as giving credibility to Capoeira as a martial art. It's just as relevant to say any dance form that has people in it who are connected to organised crime is martial. I think the confusion comes from the movements which are Afro Carribbean in origin. If you've seen the excellent film "Rize" by David LaChapelle documenting Krump there is a very interesting scene where the founders of Krump are shown footage of African tribal dances and they can't believe the similarity because to their knowledge they created the movements themselves. It's think it's a genetic memory, it just happens that these movements look warlike."

    Outside of martial arts one of the major wind ups for me is when dipshits who do Capoeira say stupid craplike "it's so cool we all use our Capoeira moves on a dancefloor!" you would be fucking owned by any Krumper or Breaker if you did that ****! I ever see anyone trying that when I'm out and I'll make a point of making you look stupid, you zero dancing ability twats. "You can come test, realize you're no contest"
    1. You think blacks have a fossil memory that tells them how to do tribal dances?

    2. The "gangster period" in capoeria was a result of a coincidental association between the fighters and street crime. MOST of the stories of Machulele to the death or razors on shoes are probably made up or over-dramaticized verisons of good-ol stabbings, but there was a real period - lasting from about 1870 to 1937, when quillimberos were being driven into the city by expansionism and they took their arts into the growing slums with them. That period is when the calavera and the practice of nom de guerre were added to the traditions of the art. Many people caught playing the jogo were hamstrung for it so it wasn't like a "do it in public; get a ticket" kind of ban.


    Gradually, this stigma dissapeard, until Bimba was given official permission to teach publically and the practice was declared a national sport.

    Note: my portugese is horrible, so apologies for whatever I mangled, some of this is stuff I've only heard out loud and never seen in print.
    Last edited by JohnnyCache; 2/02/2006 1:02pm at .
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  6. Lucky Seven is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 1:26pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Capoeira is first of all a martial art, or at least it was, it was created by the Brazilian slaves as a form of resistance and the singing and dancing elements of it where implemented as a camouflage so it seemed like they where dancing, and not fighting.
    Of course that with time the fighting element got weaker and weaker in most of the schools.

    I don't have time right now but I can elaborate on this later if you guys wish, have to translate some things to english first though.

    DISCLAIMER: I never practiced Capoeira in my life so take anything I say with a grain of salt, I only know what I'm told and what I read, luckly I can read directly from Brazilian sources that are closer to the facts, if anyone disagrees with me go ahead and enlighten me.
  7. Chance is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 1:27pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't twist this into me making comments about "blacks having a fossil memory" Johhny Cache, I believe all humans and animals have a genetic memory. If we talk about Capoeira we are talking about dance and culture. My points were about how Capoeira relates directly to a displaced people and their culture and the results and some of that culture not being taught fully when the art is taught abroad and reasons why that might be. Everything else you said to me was personal insult of your perception of my ability.

    Coyote you said "Yes, it is obvious that you are a Capoeirista (to some extent) but I find myself questioning how someone can show such contempt for an art that they obviously know so much about." I don't know the answer to that either but I don't mean any offence to you, I would just like to encourage people to look deeper into what they study and not just sit there singing in a language they can't understand. I don't consider myself a Capoeirsta either, I don't like the rhythm of Capoeira or the Bongo drums, so I don't like the dance.
    Last edited by Chance; 2/02/2006 1:31pm at .
  8. Coyote is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 1:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey
    There is active blocking. In some schools, they will slap at your face any time your guard is down. Not exactly the ultimate, considering that there's typically no contact, but awareness counts for something. That being said, they supposedly hold bautisados (baptisms) where you have to fight several (or all) students with full contact.
    Hmn...
    That may be the explanation for why he asked us to rush him like that (see initial story).
  9. Bang! is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 1:36pm

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sadly, I didn't mean at the same time. It sounds like the historical and practical explanation behind your experience with a capoeistra has more to do with him being a nutbar.
  10. Coyote is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 1:41pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chance
    Don't twist this into me making comments about "blacks having a fossil memory" Johhny Cache, I believe all humans and animals have a genetic memory. If we talk about Capoeira we are talking about dance and culture. My points were about how Capoeira relates directly to a displaced people and their culture and the results and some of that culture not being taught fully when the art is taught abroad and reasons why that might be. Everything else you said to me was personal insult of your perception of my ability.

    Coyote you said "Yes, it is obvious that you are a Capoeirista (to some extent) but I find myself questioning how someone can show such contempt for an art that they obviously know so much about." I don't know the answer to that either but I don't mean any offence to you, I would just like to encourage people to look deeper into what they study and not just sit there singing in a language they can't understand. I don't consider myself a Capoeirsta either, I don't like the rhythm of Capoeira or the Bongo drums, so I don't like the dance.
    Once again, I am only saying that the evasive movements and the associated counters have warrant. I didn't start this thread to discuss genetic memory and cultural identity. I think that anyone who joins Capoeira will try to delve deeper into the history of the art, and anyone who does not will quickly tire of the art and will not "just sit there singing in a language they can't understand". I don't know how other schools do things, but the handful of masters that I have had the privelage to meet thought that their students should have a firm grounding in the history of their art before they got too terribly far into it.
    I am not asking you to like Capoeira, I am only asking that you accept the fact that the escapes/counters can be used effectively against a striking opponant.
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