Sorting out the "stick" arts

**poidog** · Posted On: 2/28/2006 2:50pm

Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn

Actually they don't. They spar full contact, but they're very much against declaring winners and losers, or having tournaments etc.

How does not declaring winners/losers or not having tournaments detract from finding out what works or not? By that logic, point sparring "krotty" tournaments know what works and what doesn't, because they have tournaments and declare winners and losers. I think the Gatherings are a phenomenal testing ground in discovering what works and what doesn't, in real time at real speed against real opponents committed to putting you out of the fight. Just because no one says I won/lost, it doesn't invalidate the experience.

Aloha, Poi

**poidog** · Posted On: 2/28/2006 2:58pm

Stringfellow, don't let the music thing dissuade you from Bakbakan, it's a good group. Also, they're nowhere near you, but Phillip "Sled Dog" Gelinas is in Montreal and Loki "Tricky Dog" Jorgensen is in Vancouver.

**Darkpaladin** · Posted On: 2/28/2006 3:07pm

FMA (Escrima) is pretty much the most popular (and proven) stick fighting skillset. The DB are pretty high up the ladder as mentioned above. Many JKD concepts people teach Escrima as well.

**Ryno** · Posted On: 2/28/2006 3:32pm

I'd second checking out Bakbakan if you get a chance. Lots of good fighters from that system. You might want to keep your eyes out for anyone from Taboada's Balintawak group as well. He's outstanding at what he does, and used to be active in Canada, so some of his guys might be floating around. Dogbrothers' system is solid and ever-evolving.

Rey Galang just did a little book on some of the FMA systems which is quite good. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097...lance&n=283155 Also be sure to check out the books by Wiley http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080...lance&n=283155

Oh my, do both of those books speak of Lightning Scientific Arnis/LESKAS? Gee, I'd had no idea that I was plugging my system. :new_smile

**Stringfellow** · Posted On: 2/28/2006 5:15pm

Wow. Great stuff, everybody. Thanks for the leads.

**PointyShinyBurn** · Posted On: 2/28/2006 5:57pm

Originally Posted by poidog

How does not declaring winners/losers or not having tournaments detract from finding out what works or not? By that logic, point sparring "krotty" tournaments know what works and what doesn't, because they have tournaments and declare winners and losers. I think the Gatherings are a phenomenal testing ground in discovering what works and what doesn't, in real time at real speed against real opponents committed to putting you out of the fight. Just because no one says I won/lost, it doesn't invalidate the experience.

Whoa, I didn't mean it did. DBMA has nothing but my utmost respect and fear, and I agree with everything you say. I was just pointing out that you don't 'compete' in the conventional sense.

**JohnJ** · Posted On: 3/17/2006 12:33pm

A common misconception is that all FMA systems draw from sword/bladed methods. This is incorrect and can easily be seen in the hacking methods most blunted systems employ. Systems like Ilustrisimo and Pekiti Tirsia have true sword handling. And the the difference is evident. Most FMA systems will have a knife component to it.

The best way to determine a good system for you is to base it on the training methodologies and the mindset encouraged throughout the training. Do not base it on the popularity of any given style or instructor. Experience first hand how they train to see if it's functional or fluff. Rather than baiting you with a bunch of techniques, look for the instructor that shares the principles & strategies in using the techniques. After all, principles are more universal than techniques themselves. Lastly, an instructor should be able to make the distinction between training for combat sport and combat application.

John J

**JohnJ** · Posted On: 3/17/2006 12:46pm

I think the Gatherings are a phenomenal testing ground in discovering what works and what doesn't, in real time at real speed against real opponents committed to putting you out of the fight. Just because no one says I won/lost, it doesn't invalidate the experience.

What the Dog Brothers have done is provided a venue for individuals who wish to take it up another notch. However, to further clarify the mentality and approach is still based on the sport aspect. In other words, both players are controlling each others range, striking with intent to move in and out or crashing. But, there still needs to be a separate approach to training the multitude of techniques offered in FMA. Watch carefully the bouts and you see but a handful of them used i.e. ikis, sumbra, tusok etc. What happened to the others? This is where much criticism has come out about martial arts. How come I cannot do it in sparring? Sparring is controlled by a mutual consent to duel so to speak. Self-defense on the other hand typically occurs as a non-consenting attack with the greatest element of surprise. The set up is much different.

However, they do share similar elements like unpredictability, aggression which is beneficial overall.

JohnJ

**Grashnak** · Posted On: 3/17/2006 2:15pm

I highly recommend you speak to "Badger" Jones. He teaches out of his home (backyard for the win!) but is, in my humble opinion, totally legit. He teaches Filipino Arnis. His website is:

Young Forest FMA

You can find him on Kent Street downtown. For knife/stick art in Ottawa, I'd go nowhere else.

**poidog** · Posted On: 3/18/2006 1:50am

Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn

Whoa, I didn't mean it did. DBMA has nothing but my utmost respect and fear, and I agree with everything you say. I was just pointing out that you don't 'compete' in the conventional sense.

Sorry PSB, re-reading my post, I came across a bit snappy and that was not my intention. We do agree, it's just my understanding comprehension seems to be at the white belt level...I misunderstood what you were saying...my bad.

Aloha, Poi

Originally Posted by JohnJ

What the Dog Brothers have done is provided a venue for individuals who wish to take it up another notch. However, to further clarify the mentality and approach is still based on the sport aspect. In other words, both players are controlling each others range, striking with intent to move in and out or crashing. But, there still needs to be a separate approach to training the multitude of techniques offered in FMA. Watch carefully the bouts and you see but a handful of them used i.e. ikis, sumbra, tusok etc. What happened to the others? This is where much criticism has come out about martial arts. How come I cannot do it in sparring? Sparring is controlled by a mutual consent to duel so to speak. Self-defense on the other hand typically occurs as a non-consenting attack with the greatest element of surprise. The set up is much different.

However, they do share similar elements like unpredictability, aggression which is beneficial overall.

Don't be fooled into thinking the Gatherings are the sole representation of DBMA training. Crafty, Dogzilla and Pappy (Hermosa Beach clan, Hawaii clan and North Hollywood clan respectively) all devote equal parts to the more traditional/self-defense applications within the FMA. Just last week, the NoHo clan ended class with some firearm situational drills (in which Red Elvis killed me...DEAD). Routine aspects of our classes include defensive knife work, and Pappy routinely introduces some new Pekiti drill (which invariably fucks me up, trying to unpattern my previous conditioned responses).

Aloha, Poi