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  1. #51

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    spot on... lights out... to many people get sloppy when they try to go full out... slower technical training improves your skills and hard sparring lets you know if you got it yet...

  2. #52

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AikiZenDragon
    spot on... lights out... to many people get sloppy when they try to go full out... slower technical training improves your skills and hard sparring lets you know if you got it yet...
    Exactly.

    The sparring also serves to learn how to apply the techniques under a non-compliant environment, for the same reason you posted.

  3. #53
    Astrosmurf's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The people who I've talked to who've trained MT in Thailand were all surprised at the lightness of the sparring. But of course the Thais had a very high competition frequency and got their share of 100%-sparring regularly.

  4. #54
    fanatical's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've seen and tried to voice my opinion on discussions like this many times before (not just on bullshido). I may not have gotten through to a lot of people but I'm at least glad I have gotten the chance to define my own opinions a little more in detail.

    Drills like these.. yes DRILLS like these aren't useless. We some times do light drilling where the objective of one player is to throw the other and resist etc. But when they feel the throw being executed correctly and there is little error, let yourself be thrown and don't clamp on like you would if it really were sparring.

    IMHO Sparring should always be as close to an actual fight/match as you can get without actually being there. That to ME at least, is the definition of sparring. I'm not saying everyone else should adopt my views. In sparring, you want to WIN. In training, you want to work your techniques. In sparring, you fight without trying to "destroy" your opponent. In training you will take the opportunities that present themselves. Both are in my opinion important. But I can understand Phrost's opinion on how no matter how fluent, drilling will not measure up in the end. And for the "mission" of this site, how focus isn't kept on "how do you train a competent martial artist from A to Z. Because many McDojo's, many who teach utter Bullshido, will often stop short of what is needed in the end.

    Due to the inherent nature of how many different arts focus on different aspects of fighting, some will have an easier time with the progression of training. Unless you are a little tougher than most, MT will require a little more time to become proficient enough to avoid injuring yourself and others in training, if you are simply thrown to the wolves. BJJ requires that you relieve yourself of ego and learn to tap the mat or your opponent whenever you feel you are in trouble/pain and thus lets people go through all of the above mentioned methods at a much faster rate. And if I may be a little blasphemous, this is why grappling arts experience a higher learning rate and faster results. Not necessarily for it's superiority.

    If you've lost my point this far let me paraphrase.. Drills are needed. I don't think anyone here with half a brain or more would disagree. In fact, anyone with a whole brain would say that it is equally important. But then again, ensuring that someone eventually will become a good fighter, will ALWAYS be determined by sparring and actual fighting. And that is what this is all about right? It's not the joys of martial arts. We all live it every day and experience it (well.. maybe not the majority on this site sadly.. but still). But what always governs discussion here is actual fighting ability.

    While drilling something a million times WILL make you more proficient, and in fact by a stroke of luck you may actually do it successfully in a pressured situation which may save your hide one day. But again. Why people always seem to nutride sportfighting, why people always encourage harder contact, harder sparring, etc. Is because that IS what in the end is what is sadly lacking many places. And it's what ultimately WILL define fighting ability.


    Before you start dissecting my post and comment on line for line, let me just say something about myself in a situation like this. I would do sport JJ. Our striking is WAY below par, but I enjoy the fluency of going from a striking situation to throws and grappling. It teaches timing, distance and many common traits of full contact striking (continous semi-contact) but I know that it will never measure up. When I am ready, or simply when I CAN, I will train harder, I will want to test myself with strikes on the ground etc. etc. And while people may call me bullshido all they want, I at least have the decency to say that right now, the grappling is working good for me. I'm learning a lot and getting a lot of striking basics I can polish up later by simply increasing contact and try again. But I don't try to pass everything off as something that will have benefits for me no matter what.

    Right now I'm just too much of a ***** to go all out with MMA. (plus I enjoy the way a gi (clothes) get into play in a tussle) This doesn't mean your average MMA noobie who has seen a few early UFC's , feels that Royce is the best fighter ever, and that Rickson lives under his bed can beat me without, gee, I dunno perhaps 10 times the weight advantage or something. Neither does it mean I don't feel that WOW Fedor is amazing right now. And holy crap there are a lot of good fighters out there I won't ever be as good as the way I'm training right now.

    My goal isn't to be a hardcore fighter. My goal is to be as good a grappler as I can get because I enjoy that game. I know what parts of my training makes me a better fighter, and I know what doesn't. (At least I THINK I do.) And I will always try to improve my game. If I feel like it, I will up my training to BE a better fighter. What I do now, will limit some parts of that game, but for the moment I don't care because I'm doing something I love.

    I've tried to stick to one liners and such in posts lately, but I guess I broke my record with yet another rant. My point is that you may become more proficient in your art with many drills. I have NO protest. But if you have an agenda to prove ON BULLSHIDO the FIGHTING PROWESS of your art, then the drills in between that educate you in it will prove VERY LITTLE.
    More human than human is our motto.

  5. #55

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMHO Sparring should always be as close to an actual fight/match as you can get without actually being there. -- fanatical

    i agree, but how close is close enough varies by person and skill level...

  6. #56
    fanatical's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, I'd much rather prefer instructors of striking arts determining when they feel their students are ready for sparring, rather than diluting the meaning of it.

    Edit: FYI This does not necessarily mean several years.

    Edit#2: why the **** did I type "what does" in front of the post? *remove*
    Last edited by fanatical; 2/01/2006 12:07pm at .
    More human than human is our motto.

  7. #57
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Viewpoints aside, this is a good discussion.

  8. #58

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In every design, there is a brainstorming/creation phase. Slow sparring, or sparring drills act as the brainstorming session for two fighters who are looking to augment their current technique base.

    Contact sparring is the prototyping phase in which you put your combat techniques to the test, gain feedback, and tweak the next iteration. Some techniques pass the test and are kept. Others are scrapped or tucked into the deep recesses of the mind in the event that experience or maturity makes them possible.

    Both are very important to the development of a fighter or a creative individual.

  9. #59
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of what we do around here involves defining/redefining terms in order to facilitate objective, clear discussion on the subjects. There is so much bullshit lurking in gray areas in the Martial Arts that it's imperitive that we set a clear understanding of what is what.

    There is a difference between demoing, drilling, and sparring. That difference is primarily determined by the level of intensity based on contact and/or resistance.

    A demo has no resistance and a variable level of contact.

    Drilling may have varying levels of both, but in a set format (as in, "do not progress beyond point X").

    Sparring needs to be explicitly defined as full resistance with a significant amount of contact (enough to provide realistic consequences for making mistakes/leaving openings).

    Without these clear distinctions, there is "wiggle room" for people to make excuses for using substandard/suboptimal/less than effective training practices and presenting them as on the same footing as good and efficient practices.

  10. #60
    UpaLumpa's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So if I'm rolling full out against my instructor and he is dicking around going maybe 50%, is that sparring or not?
    What about when I do the same as he against white belts?
    Is one of us drilling and the other sparring?

    Discrete definitions to continuous processes are, a priori, wrong.

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