That's a much better clip, even though a lot of it still seemed somewhat compliant... like they were playing around or doing a demo instead of actually trying to take each other down.
Originally Posted by Omar
That's got nothing to do with it whatsoever. If Chef Gordon Ramsay serves me a burnt lump of coal that was supposed to be a porterhouse steak, him being a better cook doesn't magically turn it medium rare. Likewise, if Asia gets a fettish for Brazillian women and decides to start teaching soldiers Capoeira, him being a badass has nothing to do with Capoeira's effectiveness.
Originally Posted by Omar
The problem with a lot of you CMA guys is that you are incapable of objectivity. Kung Fu is like a religion to you, and you desperately need to validate even the most stupid **** instead of calling it out as such. Posting a video labeled "sparring" that's clearly a compliant drill, as evidence of anything other than two people fucking around doing a demo, shows this. You really don't understand the concept of aliveness, and I strongly doubt you even want to.
There is plenty of good CMA. But it will never come from people who so desperately want good CMA that they chose to bury their heads in the sand to the need for real aliveness in favor of believing what they're doing is sufficient.
Try to be more objective; you are NOT your fucking khakis, and you are NOT your Martial Art. If I can criticize a lot of MMA schools for leaving out Self Defense applications, then you should be able to criticize CMA schools for leaving out genuine sparring.
The second video was sweet.
If he can use the first video as a tool to get better at doing the things in the second video, and use that as a tool to get better at fighting, then it all makes sense.
Just that many people skip the first two steps and so can't see the link from the first to actual fighting.
Ur, know what I mean?
And Omar, you rock, but Phrost is right. A turd is a turd whether it's served to you by Ronald McDonald or the Iron Chef. No appeals to authority around here!
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for some people the concept of aliveness seems to have taken a religious turn as well... ... it is not a club to beat down people whose training doesn't meet your personal standard, as all people are of different abilities it follows that they train at different levels...
aliveness is not about intensity, but about authenticity...
"The level of intensity and type of equipment used there would depend on the level the Athlete was comfortable with." -- Matt Thornton
Post the entire article that quote was taken from. I'd lay money that it's out of context.
Originally Posted by AikiZenDragon
Something is either alive or it isn't; it's not a subjective statement of values and has nothing to do with my "personal standard". Considering you do Aikido, you really don't have much room to be discussing what is and what is not sparring, LARPer boy.
it was in the context of sparring...
don't get your panties in a wad...
and don't believe everything you think you know about aikido...
here's the quote in a broader context... though i doubt you will accept even this as your mind is made up and there is no room for any levels of resistance or aliveness that do not meet your all or nothing attitude... regardless of what 'your GOD' Matt Thornton says on the subject...
"How would you teach someone with zero experience how to stick fight then? As an example, how to enter and counter off a forehand or backhand swing?
1) Demonstrate a move that I feel will get them there. As an example a cover an crash.
2)Have both people gear up, (as little gear as possible). Have one party swing a forehand at the other. . .starting slower, but pulling through with the strike. Again progressive resistence.
As this is done the other person attempts to perform the skill you are trying to coach...in this case, cover and crash without eating the blow. As they get better we increase the resistance, and add a back hand. Within 5-10 minutes this should lead to one side feeding a random forehand or backhand, while the other side attempts to cover and crash.
After about 15-20 minutes we would probably just finish with some sparring if this is where the particpants want to go with it. The level of intensity and type of equipment used there would depend on the level the Athlete was comfortable with.
This is how we coach armbars, jabs, kicks, double leg takedowns, sprawls, and stickfighting."
Well, Iīve seen people at my ex-gym, in BJJ class, indulge in this sort of light sparring once in a while.
Originally Posted by Phrost
They lower down the intensity level (the force level) to try more technical stuff, like a "free flowing techniques drill" or something like that.
Itīs no substitution for hard contact sparring, but I wouldnīt call it useless.
So is it a turd or not?
The only real difference between the first and the second video is the relative skill level of the participants. The first is 2 students working with each other. One is ...I'd say "medium-advanced" and the other I don't know. The second clip is the medium-advanced student from the first clip sparring with his instructor. The second clip only looks so much better because there you are watching a real expert there. He's top flight in both BJJ and CMA/IMA.
Phrost is reading his own opinions into Matt Thorntons article.
You get far more, IMO, out of the kind of light techical sparring showed in either of those clips than from going balls to the walls all the time. That kind of really hard sparring is necessary on occasion but I think on this particular board is highly over rated. I never even saw that much of it doing Muay Thai. More emphasis on flow, form and immediate counterattacking than on trying to just overpower each other. Both kinds are good but just pissing on the technical stuff because people aren't trying to kill each other is just plain short sighted and, I personally think, ignorant.
That is just a testamant to how good Tim is. He makes it look easy. I saw a clip of his winning moments at the pan ams and it looked that way there too. Smooth as silk.
.. like they were playing around or doing a demo instead of actually trying to take each other down.
The way I see it:
Originally Posted by Omar
Hard contact sparring is a way of putting it all togheter. You have to work your technique, stregnth, speed, coordination, and then pressure test it with the sparring.
Also I beleive the level of contact should be progressively increased with the praticionerīs experience.
I kind of agree with you there. The question then is: what ratio?
How often do you spar at what intensity? How much can you handle and not be walking around constantly slightly injured? How often and how hard to even boxers spar? I'm going to drop that particular subject for today as its late and I need to get some rest and this isn't really the topic I thought it was going to be anyways.
Anyways, those clips, both of them equally, represent how I think sparring should be done most of the time and they also represent really good examples of Taiji and Bagua techiques. I tend to think of Shenwu as being more Xing Yi oriented than bagua but after reviewing the clip with Tim in it a few times I found a lot more Taiji techniques in there than I had expected to. But that may be just because I am more intimately familiar with Taiji and bagua than with Xing Yi so I have an easier time recognizing the technical base of those arts.
Nite all. ;)
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