More circular footwork

**Omar** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 10:30pm

I never called it sparring. In the original post I only said that it showed some nice things. In particular it showed the footwork I tried to make a clip of but with two partners of more equal level and IMO put the footwork to better use than I had.

In my follow up posts I referred to it only as a drill but in free sparring the footwork doesn't change much. From what I can tell, they looked like they were not working on striking much. That's not the point of roushou. More about sticking, following, sensitivity and entries into throws. There were a number of uncompleted throws and joint locks in there. AFAIK they left them uncompleted for the sake of keeping the drill flowing. I've seen the one guy, the purple belt, in other clips where he transitions straight into full on throws or even into groundwork. It all flows pretty seemlessly.

I didn't expect most people to "get it" but I have gotten several pms regarding this kind of stuff in the time since I last posted clips and found out that some of the less vocal members are still interested. I put it up more for their benifit than anything else.

Later.

**dramaboy** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 10:34pm

Omar:
Tim Cartmell is about the only guy that endorses this type of training.
He's obviously a BJJ player too. So how do you dissociate his KF training from his BJJ training?
It could be that his KF is useless and his BJJ is deadly. How can you tell?
As far as I can remember, he learned KF first. Travelled to China, worked with some old legendary KF guys, came back to US. Then he discovered BJJ, started training and eventually got a blackbelt and built a MMA team. Is this a validation of KF or BJJ?
Show me a BJJ guy that got his BJJ blackbelt and THEN discovered Bagua or whatever, and incorporated it into his training.

You know my opinion on CMA, I have a lot of respect for Cartmell. But try to honestly ask yourself these questions. He probably has a lot of drills and exercises from his KF career, so he may as well use them. But does it make them somehow superior?

It's too late and my grammar sucks, sorry.

Tomas

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 10:52pm

Interesting... Tim got his BJJ BB from Cleber Luciano in 2003. I trained at Cleber's back in '95 maybe '96-ish and I don't remember him. I wonder when he started? Hell, that means I woulda been... ****.
:5eek:

**Omar** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 11:03pm

I was not trying to make an argument for the superiority of one over the other.

He is also not "about the only guy". This type of training is pretty standard for bagua.

So how do you dissociate his KF training from his BJJ training?

I don't. Neither does he. He is on record as saying that he believes BJJ qualifies as IMA. In other words, he believes that it embodies the same principles and methods as the KF he learned in Taiwan.

Then he discovered BJJ, started training and eventually got a blackbelt and built a MMA team.

It's a validation of neither. I didn't put up the clips to present yet another dumb CMA vs. MMA argument. I put it up to show some people how the kind of footwork I work with works in another context from what I posted before. I only brought up the BJJ thing because the players were attacked as playing pattycake and basically training "dead". So I bring up the competitive records of the players and the school. Furthermore, Shenwu, if the students are any indication, is an IMA school first and BJJ second. MMA a hell of a lot more than a good ground game. There is no Muay Thai class held there, no Kyokshinkai. Just Xing Yi, Taiji, Bagua and BJJ. The students I have spoken with mostly approach training from either a Xing Yi of a Bagua perspective.

But more importantl, go back and look how I presented the clip. I made no mention of style. I didn't even say it was CMA. All of those judgements were things that were projected onto me because everyone knows that I love CMA. I present the BJJ background because last I checked a BJJ black belt (the teacher) or even a purple (one of the people in the clips) was a pretty broadly respected certification of real fighting ability and live training. If this was a different board I could simply present the CMA lineage but no one here respects that so I presented the information which according to the general consensus on Bullshido is a pretty authoritative measure of skill ie. MMA competition and BJJ belt ranking.

In my world, the time he spent with those KF guys and combined with the fact that some of them allow him to act as their representative would be good enough.

Peoples experience colours their perceptions. It's a hell of a handicap.

**Omar** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 11:05pm

Red Elvis,

From what I hear he progressed pretty damn fast. He was already a highly accomplished martial artist at the time. In 96' he had already published books on Shuai Jiao and various CMA stuff. I have heard the consensus that nothing transfers but it's a crock of ****.

**j416to** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 11:14pm

Omar

I don't believe that anyone was criticizing you. The owner of that clip titled it "empty hand technical sparring," not you. I simply asked you if Rou Shou meant slow sparring.

**Omar** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 11:26pm

My bad on that one. Never noticed the title of the clip.

"Rou shou" is the bagua version of tuishou. There's a post back on page 2 with the wikipedia quote on "sparring". I guess you could call it that under that definition. And no you were wrong on one point. There is one person who was criticising me and the folks in the clip. Fist response on the thread:

Originally Posted by Phrost:
Compliant partner? Check.
Little to no force/resistance? Check.
Crossing the feet when stepping backwards? Check.
Limp-wristed clinch work? Check.
Slap-happy hand holding? Check.
Partner assisted Martial Masturbation? Check.

Adding to the credibility of the Chinese Martial Arts? Fail.

What were you trying to accomplish here?

There's sparring in that clip? If that's how you define sparring no fucking wonder you can't grasp the concept of aliveness.

I'll let it rest. It's not worth letting another really good clip go down in the flames of pointless closeminded bullshit. At least the guy doing the "shitty" sparring has a more succesfull fight record than the guy making fun of him.

**Omar** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 11:53pm

Here's another Shenwu clip, this time with Tim in it.

http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/iMovieTheater17.html

You can see the circular footwork on his entrance to nearly every throw. This one is labeled "light vale tudo sparring".

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 11:59pm

Originally Posted by Omar

Here's another Shenwu clip, this time with Tim in it.

http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/iMovieTheater17.html

You can see the circular footwork on his entrance to nearly every throw. This one is labeled "light vale tudo sparring".

The step arounds looked really smooth, nice clip.

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/01/2006 12:09am

That's a better example of how you are supposed to use that footwork. Bagua has a rep in China for being able to run right in behind the other guy. This has lead to some really hysterically funny bagua clips of people using the circle walking footwork to try and literally run a cricle around someone. I think Tim shows better than anyone else I know of online how to use that step out and then step in that I showed in the thread "what does this have to do with kicking". Ok, so it's not kicking but I mean he put the steps in a functoinal context and put it online too.

The guy he is toying with is the purple belt from the previous clip on this thread.