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  1. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2006 12:03pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CdnRonin, I should have just asked you first. I should have known you would already have a copy.
    I found a nice history of European Daggers/Knives that you might like to look through - mostly medieval but you can really see the evolution to modern combat knives such as the Sykes/Fairbairn. Oh aint thread-drift wonderfull.
  2. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 4:26am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, has anybody in this thread except for me actually practiced Kalaripiyat in any way, shape or form?
  3. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 4:31am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Dambe (Hausa Boxing), Youba arts, Nuba arts, and many more predate Varjiramusthi/kalarippayatt.
    Being in Africa does not magically translate into a lineage handed down from Olduvai Gorge Homo Erectus, the Pyramids or what have you. It's a fair cop that Africans have tinkered with, lost, found, rediscovered, and told dodgy stories about their MA lineages as much as anybody else.

    Mind you, Kalaripiyat in its current form probably isn't super-old, either. Whole question's probably a waste of time, but I bet dollars to donuts that like virtually every other traditional martial art (including contemporary boxing and wrestling), both of 'em are 100-300 years old and have to do with some sort of cultural renewal movement.
    Last edited by eyebeams; 2/02/2006 4:39am at .
  4. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 4:38am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    What's funny about that comment is that thuggery was an Indian art of strangulation!
    "Thuggery," and "Thugee" are slang derived from Sthaga, "concealment," that came to describe a robbery/murder/smuggling mob in India, which nominally worshipped Kali (about as much as Triad members are devout Buddhists, really; it was secret society nonsese and lots of Muslims were Thugs, too). Highway robbery was/is called Dacoity.

    FYI n all.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 5:21am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Being in Africa does not magically translate into a lineage handed down from Olduvai Gorge Homo Erectus, the Pyramids or what have you. It's a fair cop that Africans have tinkered with, lost, found, rediscovered, and told dodgy stories about their MA lineages as much as anybody else.

    Mind you, Kalaripiyat in its current form probably isn't super-old, either. Whole question's probably a waste of time, but I bet dollars to donuts that like virtually every other traditional martial art (including contemporary boxing and wrestling), both of 'em are 100-300 years old and have to do with some sort of cultural renewal movement.
    That's an excellent point - re. Eric Hobspawm's book, the Invention of Tradition, which (IIRC) discusses how a "traditional" form of Indian dance was actually invented by a small number of people who more-or-less believed that they were reviving or re-assembling a genuine, ancient style.

    Joe Svinth and Tom Green have done some interesting work applying Hobspawm's theories to the martial arts.
  6. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 7:53am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't accept your definition of Art because it fails to acknowledge important theoretical and practical aspects embedded in a lot of old styles. In such styles, the healing informs the fighting, and vice versa. If you disagree, it's not because I'm wrong...
    Actually it is because you are wrong.

    ART in MA means skill. Its cut and dry. SKILL covers wide range of things.

    As far as the healing aspect they have been mutually exclusive. Because knowledge of own lends to the other doesn't mean they were developed together.

    Being in Africa does not magically translate into a lineage handed down from Olduvai Gorge Homo Erectus, the Pyramids or what have you.It's a fair cop that Africans have tinkered with, lost, found, rediscovered, and told dodgy stories about their MA lineages as much as anybody else.
    1)I never said simply coming form Africa makes it magically old

    2) Are you saying they faked Beni Hassan?

    If the answer is NO then African Arts still predate any other art. :qgaraduat
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 9:29am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA

    1)I never said simply coming form Africa makes it magically old

    2) Are you saying they faked Beni Hassan?

    If the answer is NO then African Arts still predate any other art. :qgaraduat
    Beni Hassan isn't fake, but it's irrelevant. Nobody in the world has a verifiable lineage that comes from whatever was being recorded there.

    Plus, if we use your standard, it's wrong:

    http://www.wrestlingsbest.com/gifs/wrespictart01.html

    Iraqi wrestling has older evidence for its existence.

    Africans have practiced martial arts for longer than anybody else because there have been Africans longer than there have ben any other people, but I continue to cast doubt on the existence of any unbroken lineage of an art (with techniques roughly consistent throughout that period) being more than 300 years old.

    I suppose it's a matter of perspective. My father in law was into Trinidadian stickfighting when he was younger. Sometimes people talk about that as an African art (and it's West African roots are pretty easy to find), but there's no set of names and moves that crosses the water in an easy to follow fashion, and plenty of reasons for Trinidadians to see it as their invention at least as much as an Afrocentric art.

    Mostly, I think time's better served in asking whay martial arts have, in the last 300 years and earlier, taken their current form, because it seems to be a trend that crosses grographical boundaries.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 12:03pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Beni Hassan isn't fake, but it's irrelevant. Nobody in the world has a verifiable lineage that comes from whatever was being recorded there.
    And there is virifieable lineage to Kalari? Or are you saying that pple in both are BSing?

    Plus, if we use your standard, it's wrong:

    http://www.wrestlingsbest.com/gifs/wrespictart01.html

    Iraqi wrestling has older evidence for its existence.
    I used Beni Hassan as ONE example, besides I seen differnt times for the tomb in Hassan so that part is speculative. There are older things further south the have been found in Nigeria, Tanzinia, Kenya, and other places.

    Africans have practiced martial arts for longer than anybody else because there have been Africans longer than there have ben any other people, but I continue to cast doubt on the existence of any unbroken lineage of an art (with techniques roughly consistent throughout that period) being more than 300 years old.
    I think 300yrs is too short of a time. I look at MA like recipies. They will change through time but essentially be the same. Look at Apple pie. Pies can be traced back to at least the 1600s. Apple by has been mentioned as far back as 1542 (and possibly earlier) are we still making apple pie? Yes are we making it exactly the same way? No but is it essentially the same? Yes.

    There are still MA being practiced today in Africa that do resemble what is seen in Hassan and other relics found in southern Nubian states. Is it possible that they trace back to whatever those arts depicted were? Yep very possible.



    Mostly, I think time's better served in asking whay martial arts have, in the last 300 years and earlier, taken their current form, because it seems to be a trend that crosses grographical boundaries.
    I entertain that thought often but I brought up African arts because they neglected and there are many who still think OLDER is better.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 3:02pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    And there is virifieable lineage to Kalari? Or are you saying that pple in both are BSing?
    Yeah, I think both are BSing -- kind of. As the ARMA folks show, there's a thin line between mining a heritage and having a lineage. It's not necessarily malicious.

    I used Beni Hassan as ONE example, besides I seen differnt times for the tomb in Hassan so that part is speculative. There are older things further south the have been found in Nigeria, Tanzinia, Kenya, and other places.
    I can accept that. I guess the need is to define terms about what a style is.

    I think 300yrs is too short of a time. I look at MA like recipies. They will change through time but essentially be the same. Look at Apple pie. Pies can be traced back to at least the 1600s. Apple by has been mentioned as far back as 1542 (and possibly earlier) are we still making apple pie? Yes are we making it exactly the same way? No but is it essentially the same? Yes.
    I can agree with that. I guess we have to distinguish between lineage, method and tradition, because they're all different. Lineage from teacher to student is generally what we think of as an MA heritage, but for some, being a part of a tradition of similar cultural practices is enough. Methods like striking and grappling ae your "recipes."

    There are still MA being practiced today in Africa that do resemble what is seen in Hassan and other relics found in southern Nubian states. Is it possible that they trace back to whatever those arts depicted were? Yep very possible.
    I dunno about that. Occam's Razor and all.

    I entertain that thought often but I brought up African arts because they neglected and there are many who still think OLDER is better.
    Well put.
  10. infenix is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2006 6:55am


     Style: Southern Mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Actually it is because you are wrong.

    ART in MA means skill. Its cut and dry. SKILL covers wide range of things.

    As far as the healing aspect they have been mutually exclusive. Because knowledge of own lends to the other doesn't mean they were developed together.
    If you deal in harm, then it doesn't require much smarts to hitch up with some medical knowledge. It wouldn't have taken long for MA and medicine to join forces in the same study, and it still happens all over the place in kung fu and kalari and others, I'm sure.

    I read the Kalari feature in my book. The high-jumping photos posted by Invictus show the Northern Kalari, the Southern doesn't do that. The book claims written evidence of Kalari back to 200AD (nowhere near as old as I "thought", though it doesn't rule out a much greater age for the style). That date being when the Tamil language found in some of the writings, existed. Also, the Kalari teachers are ...the village doctors and always have been. It's the same in China.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    I appreciate sarcasm as much as the next guy, really. But in all seriousness what specifically are the healing practices?

    Can you elaborate on "the healing informs the fighting"?
    Apart from Yoga (as used by Royce Gracie so it's good for the str33t, mmkay), there is massage, herbs, bone-setting. Massage and Yoga make you as strong as you think you already are, but in fact are not. They teach you more about anatomy and cause & effect than you can get bouncing around in Da R1ng. YOu take that info and new strength into r34l1ty and things make more sense, you can read your opponent better and target his vitals more accurately and powerfully. Then, when he's down, you'll have the skills to revive him according to his injury - a slightly enlarged repertoire than slaps to the cheek, smelling salts or a bucket of water over the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    Infenis,
    If you know of a place I can buy Josette D. Normandeau's book, let me know. I only had a chance to flip through the only copy I have ever seen at a book store. It gave some great historical context to a wide veriety of arts, the copy I saw was published in french though.
    Never heard of it or "Deadly Arts", I'm afraid. "The Way of the Warrior" has about 20 pages on Kalari.

    Rgds,
    David
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