Trouble with shoulder throws

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 10:11am

A plyometric drill I've used to improve seoi.

Start in a normal stance, leap forward about 2 feet, give or take. As you leap, turn 180 degrees and drop into a full squat (butt on heels). Straighten your legs, without moving your shoulders - that is, your shoulders do not rise as your legs straighten, you bend at the waist.

Stand and repeat.

Sometimes this is done leaping over a partner; sometimes it's trained in steps (leap over with just the turn, no squat, practice squat with no leaping).

Sometimes I have students tuck and roll forward as they straighten their legs.

It doesn't replace uchikomi and nagekomi with a partner, but does help you become more confident and explosive in your movements. I had one student struggling with ippon seoi, did this for a month, pulled off a nice explosive seoi in randori - I wanted to get him to a tournament, just to hear the crowd if he could pull it off. Unfortunately, he started competing MMA shortly after and got away from seoi.

**GoldenJonas** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 10:20am

If you are talking about "momentum" you must be talking about performing the throw during randori, active-resisting randori. If this is where you are having the problem it is very hard to perform ippon seo-nagi without working on kuzushi or at least distracting your opponent with something else. If you do not distract, off balance, and/or do not perform it perfectly with an crisp, effective entry (which I never do) you get posted, reversed, and/or risk getting choked with a rear naked. I have found that Uchi mata during sparring works as a good entry point for many different throws.

If your just having problems getting the opponent around and he/she is working with you, check your base (make sure it is stable but not too far open), make sure your grabbing high enough on the uke's shoulder, make sure squat and draw the uke across your body, and make sure your hip is out far enough support a clean throw.

At least thats how I saw it done while playing Tekken.....ask your instructor.

**Ryno** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 11:52am

People all seem to be hitting the key points, but I'll just redundantly re-inforce what they are saying. You can't always just dive in for this one, he'll see it coming, and counter. When you do get in good on him, pull, pull, pull, and don't let up as you make your entry under the arm.

Glue yourself to him. There should be absolutely no space between the two of you as you come in and make your turn. Keep pulling. Get in super deep, underneath him, and get a good turn. Secure his arm tightly to the top of your shoulder. If you are not deep enough, he may still be thrown, but it'll take a lot more effort. He should be draped over you, tight to your body, and shouldn't be floating around behind you.

As you turn, you should go up onto the balls of your feet, and not be sitting back on your heels. You lean forward as you lift, and he should be so tight to your body that he goes right over. Once again, the arm pull will help in getting him tipping that direction.

Get out some crash pads, and do 50 or 100 of them in a row. Once you're executing well, have your partner try to resist even more. Then figure out a good fake that'll set it up a bit better.

**babo78** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 1:47pm

Originally Posted by Te No Kage!

1) you're probably rarely ever going to pull off this throw in randori -- because everybody knows this throw and hence knows how to defend against it

2) set it up with another throw -- ko soto gari is a good combo throw for the ippon seionage

As a single technique in randori what you said in #1 is probably on the money. But as part of combination like you said in #2, imo seoi is very strong throw (not counting height factor).

Whispers, I don't know how you are training for seoi or your height but don't ever do drop knee seoi unless you have some nice padding. Even if you wear knee pads/brace, try to avoid it. Imo, if forms bad habit at start and damages your knee, later when your more proficient at throw, drop knee seoi imo comes very easy.

Originally Posted by Yrkoon9

As a tall guy with weak legs, seoi has always been my weakest throw. IMO this is a throw for shorter people with powerfull legs. That is not to say it cant be done by guys like me, but your entry has to be perfect.

Yeah, I totally agree. Imo height definitly affects which technique comes more natural and more effective for a person.

Whispers, how tall are you and the person you are practicing it on ?

**BackFistMonkey** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 2:04pm

Originally Posted by GoldenJonas

.....At least thats how I saw it done while playing Tekken.....ask your instructor.

Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right A B A B Select Select Start

**Bang!** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 2:07pm

Yrkoon, where do you like the arms to be when setting up tsurikomi?

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 2:33pm

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

I'm slowly learning to keep the commitment of the choke/throw even if you think its not working. Thats usually when you have it right and in the case of the choke the guy is about to tap, you just had to hold on but you didn't think you had him, or in the case of a throw you just had to keep turning.

I'd say commitment is what separates the guys that can do takedowns from the guys that can't in a lot of cases. If you don't commit to the throw 100%, then you aren't likely to get it on someone that has experience. People can drill the setups and techniques all the want, but if they won't commit to the throw, it just won't happen a lot of times.

My takedown game got WAY better in short order after I just decided one night that I either I was going to get that damn throw, or I was going to go down in a beautiful crash of glory. Of course that attitude isn't the perfect one to have, but it was a nice lead in to learning to relax about getting thrown. You can't get better if you refuse to "play" and won't open yourself up to being taken down.

Edit: I should note that my experience is not nearly as good as a lot of the other guys posting on this thread, and that while I consider my takedowns to be pretty good for a BJJ guy, the more experienced throwers already posting should be listened to if their advice contradicts mine.

**Yrkoon9** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 2:39pm

Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey

Yrkoon, where do you like the arms to be when setting up tsurikomi?

I'm a mat bully. I push people around. So my hand on a lapel makes it easier. But I cant keep my right hand on their lapel all the time. People break that grip constantly. So I will make most of what I do come off my left hand holding their sleeve high up, just below the shoulder. I use that one handed grip to yank em around in circles.

My other hand I would LOVE to get ahold of their sleeve for Tsurikomi for my right foot. I'm odd like that. Because I am kinda tall I can step in real close with them with my left foot and still have plenty of 'yank'. But if I get ahold of their jacket or shoulder I will try the same thing. Just as long as I can get them to try to step and turn out of it or pull back to their right.

I will say that my seoi is slowly turning into a seoi otoshi as I get older. My legs just dont want to bend as deep as they once did. My 'pop' is getting weaker. So I find myself missing the opportune set up for seoi and using a little otoshi in there. My Judo has gone to ****.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 2:53pm

Cool. Any thoughts on adapting tsurikomi to no gi? I used to think that I should be bringing the arm across, but that's proved to be really impractical compared to leveraging the elbow out. Am I on the right track? Bear in mind that I'm a short fucker.

**Yrkoon9** · Posted On: 1/31/2006 2:55pm

Okay. My last post sucked. I am eatting and not at all focused on what I am saying. I will try to explain better using pictures.

First off I use my Seoi based off a Sasae Tsurikomi. Let's take a look:

Stop and take a look at the second image. You usually don't get someone to step #3. You usually get them at #2. Most people with good balance don't just fall right over. So lets assume you get to picture #2 and achieved some offbalancing.

Think about spinning straight from here into your Seoinage:

To do this you have to use your sweeping foot and pivot all the way around the back if you go right side. But if you were to go LEFT side Seoi you see how the guys arm is already up in the air? Easy to get under him for left Seoi at that point.

OBVIOUSLY YOU REVERSE ALL OF THIS FOR RIGHT SIDE SEOI AS I WAS DESCRIBING IN MY EARLIER POST.

Now lets look at Seoi Otoshi or 'the knee breaker'. No kidding. This is a great way to mess up your knee if you are not aware of the possibility.:

Okay now here is where I really mangled the translation from brain to internet on my previous post.

Lets say I hit him with my LEFT foot Tsurikomi and I get him offbalanced and hopping. I will plant that foot down and shoot my right leg through for the Seoi Otoshi as pictured above.