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  1. JohnnyFive is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 5:45pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    <snipped>
    you both have made it sound like im being an elitist with this, but i'm not. at no point has anyone addressed my main point with anything but sarcasm.

    If something is legal and can be effective in your sport, you should learn how to do it.

    plain and fuckin simple.
    OK, let me try to explain it to you this way -- with bullet points!

    You are saying:

    * Takedowns are legal in Judo
    * Takedowns are effective.
    * You should learn takedowns/learn to defend takedowns.

    People are trying to tell you:

    * Takedowns are used in judo, yes. They even have Japanese names.
    * Judo is one of those sports where people try to throw each other
    * For some reason, takedowns are not used very often in Judo
    * This isn't because we're stupid.
    * Judo people like winning
    * If takedowns were so easy and effective, people would use them, because, see previous point:
    * Judo people like winning.
    * But takedowns are not used very often in Judo.
    * Judo people aren't stupid.
    * THEREFORE there must be SOME REASON that takedowns aren't used very often.

    Also, technically, it is possible that I could throw someone by grabbing them by both lapels, yelling "HULK SMASH", lifting them over my head, and hurling them to the ground. This is what we call a 'low percentage technique', because I am not Bruce Banner. Therefore, the counter to this technique is ALSO not commonly studied, because if we spend all our time defending every slight possible technique, we won't have enough time to obsessively practice harai-goshi.
  2. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 5:46pm


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    Conclusion: it is pointless to try and converse with drummerboy.

    I hypothesized nothing. i gave 2 examples that completely proved my point. The takedowns were used, and the victims had no idea what to do. if they knew how to defend it, this thread wouldnt exist.

    snip

    If something is legal and can be effective in your sport, you should learn how to do it.

    plain and fuckin simple.
    You know, I take offense in that. It si not pointless to converse with me.

    You gave us two isolated examples and claimed that Judo players can not defend wrestling takedowns and therefore loose matches.

    We gave you our isolated counterexamples.

    Our isolated counterexamples were for some reason less valid then your isolated examples.

    Our response was: how come pure wrestlers don't clean up Judo comps?

    Why then?

    There's a lot of people that would like to be judo champions. Are you assuming they are all stupid? Many of them are wrestlers. You really think that if it was THAT simple they would not take advantage of it? Do you think that once they would start winning, their opponents would not analyze their fights and found out it's the wrestling takedowns that win them their matches?
    You act like you just invented a perpetual motion machine.

    You say " If something is legal and can be effective in your sport, you should learn how to do it". Why do you assume that this is not happening? Because of your two isolated examples? And with the same breath accusing us of being irrational?

    Please...


    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  3. Tourettes is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 5:47pm


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, About that BJJ Lurker clip that everyone keeps referencing - he's a blue belt from Estonia named Martin Aedma. here's his explanation (amidst a huge bjj vs judo circle jerk) from the subfighter forums:

    "lol guys!
    that guy in the blue gi is me.
    Amazing you know, i was just looking the UFC articles but couldnt help to notice the Bjj lurker thread, open it, click the link and BAM its there ... just amazing.

    Guys, it was a childrens Judo competition through all day, BUT as the last thing before the event ended the organizers announced a category where anyone regardless of Age, Style, Rank could enter and try to fight under Judo rules.

    I enterd just for the fun of it, no hidden agendas in my head, no idea whod id be up against. Just those 2 other guys were there with me and it went as it went.

    Im jits blue belt (2,5 years)

    Funny where the video has gotten and what uve thought about it.
    Anyways, i state again, no quest to bash judo in any way was in my mind. I like judo alot, im even thinking of starting judo aswell and one of my, so called idols / or big names i look up to is David Camarillo.

    Btw, u guys can check out my other video aswell, i think its in the video section under fight clips i think, i was in amateur mma fight (shooto c-class) in early 2004, posted it about 1,5 years ago but should still be there, named - Martin Aedma in amateur shooto or something like that.

    Peace!"

    http://www.subfighter.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=21 902

    5th page of the debate. His user name is sh1nobi
  4. ryanand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 5:55pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyFive
    OK, let me try to explain it to you this way -- with bullet points!

    You are saying:

    * Takedowns are legal in Judo
    * Takedowns are effective.
    * You should learn takedowns/learn to defend takedowns.

    People are trying to tell you:

    * Takedowns are used in judo, yes. They even have Japanese names.
    * Judo is one of those sports where people try to throw each other
    * For some reason, takedowns are not used very often in Judo
    * This isn't because we're stupid.
    * Judo people like winning
    * If takedowns were so easy and effective, people would use them, because, see previous point:
    * Judo people like winning.
    * But takedowns are not used very often in Judo.
    * Judo people aren't stupid.
    * THEREFORE there must be SOME REASON that takedowns aren't used very often.

    Also, technically, it is possible that I could throw someone by grabbing them by both lapels, yelling "HULK SMASH", lifting them over my head, and hurling them to the ground. This is what we call a 'low percentage technique', because I am not Bruce Banner. Therefore, the counter to this technique is ALSO not commonly studied, because if we spend all our time defending every slight possible technique, we won't have enough time to obsessively practice harai-goshi.

    excellent post and everything you said was correct and easily understood by even the dumbest of posters (myself).

    so yes, there is SOME REASON that takedowns aren't used very often. but they are much easier to perform than the HULK SMASH, and you're more likely to encounter a shot than a HULK SMASH, since you dont have to be bruce banner to pull one off. i know its not super common in judo, but if it happens you should be ready. i dont mean becoming a wrestler, i mean knowing what to do just in case you encounter one.
  5. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 6:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As a Judoka, Wrestler, and BJJer I will tell that a single leg or double leg isn't always easy in a gi. If the guy knows what he is doing he going to not only stop you but submit you as well. I see it often in BJJ tournaments when wrestlers put on a gi and then WRESTLE like they're still in a singlet and find themselves choked.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  6. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 6:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    I’ll say it again: a takedown puts you in a better position for submissions etc.
    So why did you start this thread with a statement like
    Moves that any crappy wrestler knows can win a judo fight, judging by those vids
    ?

    If you're changing the argument and continuing to argue 'cause you're learning something, that's good. But if you keep arguing 'cause you can't admit you don't have a clue, not so good.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    Well, the videos I spoke of show wrestling takedowns being utilized to put the person shooting into position for match winning submissions.
    Sure, but that's not how you started the debate. Your point was that judoka should learn to defend against the take-down, not that they need to better defend against submissions. It is a very key difference.

    What the videos show is how people who only train part-time in submission grappling fair against submission specialists, that's nothing new. Your first post, however, focused on the shot, which is of much less importance - the same results can be gained more economically by other methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    They don’t represent all judo, but these situations exist.
    You're finally learning something.

    But you still have no grasp on the sport itself. Sure, these situations exist, but so do standing waki-gatame and flying juji-gatame. Sure, shots happen. But grip fighting happens much, much more, throws happen much more. These are match enders.

    The result of a shot, on the other hand is rarely more than, say, a poorly executed footsweep. So BFD.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    And besides, how did you convince the wrestlers to go with you when they were deathly afraid of being “thrown around”??
    Never said all wrestlers were deathly afraid of being thrown around - I was trying to illustrate the idiocy of generalizing from the actions of a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    Well, now you've proven my point on your own, but ill say it again. a takedown puts you in a better position for submissions, just like you said.
    I didn't say that - in fact, I said that there are submissions that can be performed while *being* taken down - in other words, a shot opens the shooter up to be submitted.

    If you shoot and the guy pulls guard (and doesn't sprawl, which is the only defense against a shot you've argued for), the shooter is in a less effective position for a takedown, not a better position.

    What this boils down to is that a shot only makes sense if you are a better ground fighter than your opponent (or, converse, worse at stand-up). This is the only thing those video prove, not "Moves that any crappy wrestler knows can win a judo fight".

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    Okay, so a takedown all alone is ineffective. all right, lets not do it, and lets not learn how to submit our opponent after he's taken down.
    Once again, you show your ignorance. Judoka do this all the time - it's called the follow up against a failed throw, or in some cases terminal judo. Again, the result of shot is little different from the result of a failed throw, and judoka learn defend themselves in that situation. There's relatively little to be gained by specifically training against the shot.

    Once more, you focus too much on a single technique. Let me remind you of a couple of your early statments
    If anyone has some insight, please share it.
    ...
    If a person is just completely befuddled as to the proper course of action when their opponent shoots on them
    My insight is that you still have no clue what constitutes the proper course of action, in a judo context.

    Give up your fixation on the takedown/sprawl concept, and you may yet learn something.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    Thats like saying dont bother setting up your opponent with jabs in a boxing match, because it only takes one punch to knock him out. Just swing off on him.
    Oh, I got plenty of cheap takedown moves - they just put me in a better position for ne-waza with less risk of being subbed, than a shot. The difference is that these ticky-tack throws can also set up the big match-enders.

    Ko-ashi-waza - that's the judo equivalent of the jab.

    Shots don't set up finishes nearly as well. Poor analogy.


    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    saying "you got served" after a dance off is not the same as winning a fight.
    Dance off? I thought you were talking about capoeira.
  7. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 6:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Don't let the title confuse you, that's not a judo book.
    Try reading the intro, it may give you a clue about the real origin of that technique.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 6:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    That looks like its from the COMPLETE KANO JIU JITSU.

    Just an FYI on the book Katsukuma Higashi was not strictly a Kodokan Judoka he was another jiujitsu school exponent as well. Also I think he fought Yukio Tani in a grudge match an lost.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. The Limey is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 6:38pm


     Style: Ex-TMA/KB Noob/Judo Noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ryanand
    excellent post and everything you said was correct and easily understood by even the dumbest of posters (myself).

    so yes, there is SOME REASON that takedowns aren't used very often. but they are much easier to perform than the HULK SMASH, and you're more likely to encounter a shot than a HULK SMASH, since you dont have to be bruce banner to pull one off. i know its not super common in judo, but if it happens you should be ready. i dont mean becoming a wrestler, i mean knowing what to do just in case you encounter one.

    I was at my judo club's tourney on saturday. Saw a guy shoot in against one of our black belts. BB sprawled. As far as I know he's never wrestled, yet he still knew how to defend against the take down.

    Judo includes double leg and single leg take downs, judo does teach how to defend against those moves.
  10. ryanand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2006 6:43pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're changing the argument and continuing to argue 'cause you're learning something, that's good. But if you keep arguing 'cause you can't admit you don't have a clue, not so good.*


    yes, my argument has changed as i've learned new information about the subject-- the topic is 2 judo QUESTIONS, and both have been answered, with debate over a piece of the second question.

    *Sure, but that's not how you started the debate. Your point was that judoka should learn to defend against the take-down, not that they need to better defend against submissions. It is a very key difference.

    What the videos show is how people who only train part-time in submission grappling fair against submission specialists, that's nothing new. Your first post, however, focused on the shot, which is of much less importance - the same results can be gained more economically by other methods.*

    Yes, they were fairly basic submissions that won the fights in the videos, and groundwork may be an issue, but in both cases the takedowns weren't defended against and thats what put them in a bad position. so thats why i brought up that point.

    *If you shoot and the guy pulls guard (and doesn't sprawl, which is the only defense against a shot you've argued for), the shooter is in a less effective position for a takedown, not a better position.

    What this boils down to is that a shot only makes sense if you are a better ground fighter than your opponent (or, converse, worse at stand-up). This is the only thing those video prove, not "Moves that any crappy wrestler knows can win a judo fight".*

    obviously sprawling isnt the only defense to a shot. short of taking a step back, its one of the simpler defenses i could think of, so i keep mentioning it.
    again you're using what i said in the first post against me now. My point then was that with what little i know about judo, the videos seem to show that a crappy wrestler can win a judo fight, and i asked for an explanation, which i received. that explanation was that shots are not common or 100% effective in judo, so the practitioners dont train in it.

    (insert my point here)
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