2 Judo Questions.

**dramaboy** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 8:53pm

I don't quite understand how one judges the "sillyness" of rules.

Tomas

**Sophist** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 6:15am

I love arguments from ignorance.

Double legs, ankle picks etc are all acceptable enough in judo, but as in judo competition landing someone on their back as hard as possible is a major goal, this can lead to the technique being modified slightly to achieve this more effectively. For example, judo morote-gari seems usually to have a more scooping motion in most of its variations than the double legs I've seen. A few tight-assed refs dislike techniques that remind them of wrestling and will mark them poorly, though this seems a complaint I've heard more commonly from U.S. judoka than from judoka anywhere else.

In my admittedly limited experience (and I'd appreciate someone with more wrestling/judo crossover knowledge speaking up on this, all I've got to go on is watching wrestlers doing judo), it seems that shots aren't quite so effective when wearing a gi, because the extra ability to grip the shooter severely inhibits his ability to get in deep and attack.

Attacks on the elbow (including bent armlocks, which are elbow attacks in judo by convention even when they seem to affect the shoulder more) are legal in most places in the world for any sort of adult judo competition, though I've heard of one or two places in the U.S. restricting them by belt.

Judo ne-waza is variable. There are two clubs I've attended a respectable amount here in Edinburgh. One of these is a university club: cheap and convenient, but the ne-waza is based almost entirely around the turtle and rather sucks. (I find I care remarkably less about this since I started cross-training BJJ). The other is a club frequently attended by high-level competitors and taught by an ex-Olympian. Groundwork there is largely guard-based and is rather more useful, though of course it's still somewhat lacking when it comes to turning pins into submissions. One of these places is vastly more likely to produce groundfighting experts than the other.

**FictionPimp** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 7:57am

My club allows chokes and armbars after the age of 14. A lot of the guys there are now going with me to cross train in bjj.

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 9:11am

Originally Posted by ryanand

I suppose the problem we're addressing now isn't "silly rules" but "stupid training". If shots are legal and effective in judo competition, it would be in a judokas best interest to at least be fairly familiar with how to defend against them somehow. They're trying to have both sides of the coin but it bites them in the ass.

This is just plain pissant.

Why do you feel the need to talk about what's in the best interest of an art you don't train or compete in?

If you did train, you might realize that most judokas do have a clue about how to defend take-downs. But no, you're pontificating from your own ignorance about what "they're" doing wrong, what "they" should do.

"We" do just fine, thanks. I dont know this "coin" you speak of, nor has it bit me in the ass.

Originally Posted by ryanand

Tournaments want to make the art more realistic/give players more options so they allow leg TDs

Who told you tournaments want make the art more realistic? Tournaments are for competition, to test your ability, there's no pretensions of realism there. Tournament directors just want to get people together to have a good, safe, competition.

No more, no less "real" than wrestling tournaments, BJJ, SAMBO, even MMA isn't "real". It's competition - it's a good thing, but don't confuse it with "real".

You want more options - go to different tournaments. I like that different styles have different rules - it's called variety.

I've competed under wrestling (folk-style), judo and MMA rules. I like each, for different reasons. I'd like to try BJJ and SAMBO, but there just don't seem to be any tournaments nearby.

Originally Posted by ryanand

Schools want to stick to their art so they don't learn how to defend against leg TDs.

No, individual instructors tend to teach what they know best. If a lot of wrestlers start entering judo tournaments and winning with takedowns, the competitive coaches will start teaching defenses, on incorporating them as techniques. Consider what happened among competitive clubs when the Russians started winning.

I get tired of one-technique-geeks. Some art doesn't reward (as in the case of a TD), or permit (as in ankle locks) their favorite technique, so that art must be the suck. Doesn't matter that there are plenty of other options, in any art.

It's about like me complaining that wrestlers want to stick to their art, so they don't learn how to defend chokes and arm-locks.

Or slams.

Wrestlers want to take people to the ground, but they don't want to land hard. They're trying to have both sides of the coin but it bites them in the ass.

**ryanand** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 12:47pm

Originally Posted by dakotajudo

This is just plain pissant.

Why do you feel the need to talk about what's in the best interest of an art you don't train or compete in?

If you did train, you might realize that most judokas do have a clue about how to defend take-downs. But no, you're pontificating from your own ignorance about what "they're" doing wrong, what "they" should do.

"We" do just fine, thanks. I dont know this "coin" you speak of, nor has it bit me in the ass.

Who told you tournaments want make the art more realistic? Tournaments are for competition, to test your ability, there's no pretensions of realism there. Tournament directors just want to get people together to have a good, safe, competition.

No more, no less "real" than wrestling tournaments, BJJ, SAMBO, even MMA isn't "real". It's competition - it's a good thing, but don't confuse it with "real".

You want more options - go to different tournaments. I like that different styles have different rules - it's called variety.

I've competed under wrestling (folk-style), judo and MMA rules. I like each, for different reasons. I'd like to try BJJ and SAMBO, but there just don't seem to be any tournaments nearby.

No, individual instructors tend to teach what they know best. If a lot of wrestlers start entering judo tournaments and winning with takedowns, the competitive coaches will start teaching defenses, on incorporating them as techniques. Consider what happened among competitive clubs when the Russians started winning.

I get tired of one-technique-geeks. Some art doesn't reward (as in the case of a TD), or permit (as in ankle locks) their favorite technique, so that art must be the suck. Doesn't matter that there are plenty of other options, in any art.

It's about like me complaining that wrestlers want to stick to their art, so they don't learn how to defend chokes and arm-locks.

Or slams.

Wrestlers want to take people to the ground, but they don't want to land hard. They're trying to have both sides of the coin but it bites them in the ass.

what?? wrestlers dont want to land hard? what the hell does that mean? i have no objections to slamming someone on their back. and what wrestler cant "defend a slam"? throws are used in wrestling, and people are constantly slammed... this doesnt really make sense to me... ever seen a freestyle or greco match?? not that any of these points really have anything to do with the topic

that "one technique geek" comment did nothing for your case, since you're saying that:
since judo doesnt allow leg TDs (which it does) then i will be mad because i cant use them (even though i AM allowed).

i offered the realism/more options theory up because it made the most sense to me.

you see, if wrestling allowed armlocks and chokes, then wrestlers should learn to defend them, because it could win or lose a match for them.

by the same logic, if judo allows leg TDs, they should learn to sprawl. in both the videos (which i repeatedly said were my sources of information), not one judo person sprawled when shot on.

you said yourself that judo schools will teach sprawls and such "If a lot of wrestlers start entering judo tournaments and winning with takedowns". Well now you've seen examples, so is it time yet? It's not like these guys were doing some bizzare takedowns that no one knows how to defend. these were single and double leg takedowns. Judo competitors at the black belt level (in these cases) couldn't defend against them, but the TDs were:

1) legal
2) effective
3) incredibly simple to perform/defend against

and to whoever asked me how i judge something as "silly", that is how. a legal, effective, simple move is brought into a tournament and none of the black belts know what to do. its ridiculous.

like i've said before, if i had the option of taking judo, i would. no art is perfect, but i think that this is somewhat of a big flaw in either the rules of competition or the training. its not all cases, but the ones i showed you are a sample of whats out there. and to say i cant critique something because i dont train in it is just stupid-- do i have to dance around to the beat of a brazilian drum to know that capoeira wont help me win many fights? its not like im assuming simple takedowns work in judo, i spoke of widely available video evidence. im done typing.

**dramaboy** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 12:55pm

Originally Posted by dakotajudo

Why do you feel the need to talk about what's in the best interest of an art you don't train or compete in?

Look in his profile. It says "wrestling since 2004".

That's OVER A YEAR OF WRESTLING SO NOW STFU AND LISTEN TO HIS EVERY SINGLE WERD YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING N00B!!

:)

Tomas

**Tourettes** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 1:01pm

Rochester is only about 70 miles from you - good judo there. Time for a roadtrip to test out your vast knowledge + opinions...you're old enough to drive, right?

**ryanand** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 1:09pm

Originally Posted by drummerboy

Look in his profile. It says "wrestling since 2004".

That's OVER A YEAR OF WRESTLING SO NOW STFU AND LISTEN TO HIS EVERY SINGLE WERD YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING N00B!!

:)

Tomas

well my friend, i wrestled on and off from about age 9- 12 but only started at it with "martial art" in mind in '04.

but lets assume that my wrestling and all around MA experience doesnt matter to this point (because it doesnt)

do i have to be shot before i can decide whether attempted murder is wrong? absolutely not.

Do i have to train in judo to know that its stupid for a judo blackbelt to get destroyed by a BJJ white belt? absolutely not.

How could the judokas have put up a better fight? by learning to defend takedowns. i dont see how you can argue against this.

**dramaboy** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 1:40pm

Originally Posted by ryanand

well my friend, i wrestled on and off from about age 9- 12 but only started at it with "martial art" in mind in '04.

Well, my friend, put it in your profile then.

Originally Posted by ryanand

Do i have to train in judo to know that its stupid for a judo blackbelt to get destroyed by a BJJ white belt? absolutely not.

If you trained in judo you'd know what the meaning of a judo black belt is. And you'd know that you can be promoted to a black belt as a "non-competitor".
Besides, BJ Penn is a freak and not a norm. In general judo black belts are NOT destroyed by BJJ white belts in JUDO tournaments. May be in BJJ tournaments, but why would that be surprising since it is a different sport?
The whole premise is idiotic.
Are you saying that you become a better judo player if you train wrestling instead of judo? Good luck, see you at the Olympics. Or start with US Nationals. US wrestling is strong, US judo is weak. Why don't the pure wrestlers invade US Judo nationals and take all the medals?

Tomas

**Wazashi** · Posted On: 1/30/2006 1:58pm

Originally Posted by Tourettes

Rochester is only about 70 miles from you - good judo there. Time for a roadtrip to test out your vast knowledge + opinions...you're old enough to drive, right?

Yeah Rochester has great Judo. I know a bunch of guys in Rochester and I could probably set you up with a fight that would change your opinion completely. Believe it or not there are plenty of Judo black belts out there that can and do beat BJJ guys. Don't form your opinions from a few on line video clips. It's pretty easy to cut out all the scenes where the BJJ guy gets his ass handed to him. :jerkit2yf