Bullshido is Bullshido does

**AikiZenDragon** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 4:36pm

yeah i got YOU Asia, but some posters are obviously in the other camp... resist all you want, but it is more important that it be realistic... that's the problem with most aikido... just stiffening up and going "dead" weight is not realistic...

**wagamichi** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 4:42pm

Originally Posted by AikiZenDragon

yeah i got YOU Asia, but some posters are obviously in the other camp... resist all you want, but it is more important that it be realistic... that's the problem with most aikido... just stiffening up and going "dead" weight is not realistic...

I have never trained with an akidoka. but historicaly, was Osensei's goal to found a fighting system or a zen based spirtual enlightening system. if so, non-functional techniques are irrelevent. It is my understanding that aiki-jitsu is the combat side of these arts. I may be wrong. but if harmony in the univers is the goal of aikido who cares if it is street effective. unless this is true but some claim it to be for combat.

**AikiZenDragon** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 5:51pm

that is a common misconception... my belief and others will disagree is that the system Osensei founded is, MUST, be both it is not exclusively zen based as he took many of the spiritual aspects from various sources, and it is not exclusively aikijutsu as he took many aspects from various arts... to me aikido must be effective physically in order for the spiritual part to be valid... the harmony with the universe is not a goal, but rather part of the method for the physical aspects... if you cannot stop a physical attack, then how can you achieve peace or harmony with yourself or the attacker? some will say there is no striking, kicks or attacks of any kind in aikido this is simply a misunderstanding of the art... others will say there is no ground work this too is not true... people fought much the same then as they ever have... there is really nothing new in aikido... all the techniques can be found in numerous other arts... what causes problems is the purpose or motivation or the state of mind that one must have and foster in the practice of aikido... this and the relaxed non competitive aspect to training... many will watch a class and see that it is not "rolling", but that is just one aspect of training the way to train beginners and people who are older or in lesser physical shape... for every student you may practice at the level of resistance or "aliveness" that you are comfortable at... I would not slam some sixty year old grandma or 12 or 13 year old just to show how alive and effective my technique was, but with young rough fellows we play hard... repetition of the movements to foster the proper mindset and proper physical movement is stressed over realism or aliveness, but not to the exclusion of them... i would not jam grannies technique although i could i will cooperate and help her refine her technique to become smoother and more efficient in the application of that technique... you could compare it to a guy who lifts heavy weights a few reps(most combat sports) vs some one who uses light weights with lots of reps (aikido, and other arts)... does that help? there are a few excellent books i could recommend as well if you like...

**Gumby** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 6:28pm

Originally Posted by wagamichi

You are more affraid of a game where a ref will stop it if you are about to die, than having 6 guys stomping on your head? did they take turns? I don't think 6 guys can stand around a head and stomp on it...there is not enough room. 3 mabey one at the top, one on each side...I guess 4 if one is one your back... :iamwithst

Couple of things to take into account during that encounter:

The bouncers were briefly outnumbered in that situation, and after I realized the situation I was in, I was able to use my grappling skills to use one of my opponents as a shield while I was on the ground.

Im a pretty good competitor- the only time I've ever not won a tournament I entered was when I fought Igor Gracie in the USA Trials, and I was more terrified for that fight than I have ever been at the bar.

Have you ever heard to expression anticipation of death is worse than death itself? That is the reason that fights set in a cage or a competition are more strenuous than a fight that randomly occurs in your everyday bar scene. The fact that you know you're about to fight and that the person your fighting is approachable to your own skill level is what leaves you with a knot in your stomach.

:ninja7:

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 6:32pm

Originally Posted by wagamichi

I have never trained with an akidoka. but historicaly, was Osensei's goal to found a fighting system or a zen based spirtual enlightening system. if so, non-functional techniques are irrelevent. It is my understanding that aiki-jitsu is the combat side of these arts. I may be wrong. but if harmony in the univers is the goal of aikido who cares if it is street effective. unless this is true but some claim it to be for combat.

I get a different take on the history.

Ueshiba went a little bit crackpot following his father's death (when Ueshiba was 37)- hooking up with a Shinto sect - followed them, trying to set up communes, live like a hippy (one in China led to his arrest).

Prior to that, he was pretty well trained in, and mostly taught, rough and tumble jujutsu. After that, his teaching got progressively more spiritual, but he really didn't flip completely into lala-land until his late fifties or sixties, IIRC. Aikdo, through it's various names, was still a functional MA until then.

So you see a lot of differences among branches of aikido, depending on when the student branched away from Ueshiba. Tomiki, the judo guy, was an early branch, Tohei, the ki guy, was one of the later branches.

Even in the so-called Hombu lineage (the one headed by Ueshiba's son, now grandson), there is a range of practicality - some more spiritual than others. Some are competent, some are aiki-fruity.

What drove me to distraction, when I trained in aikikai (and I've said this before), was that our instructor expected me to move like Old Ueshiba, without giving me the time to train like Young Ueshiba.

Young people should be banging heads, dammit.

**Gumby** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 6:32pm

Originally Posted by AikiZenDragon

get real there is almost zero chance you will die in a match!!! even if the ref doesn't stop it quickly... the last ufc i watched i was disappointed because the ref stopped the fights too soon... if 6 guys were kicking you in the head with bad intentions you would be dead... as you are not dead, then something about your example is incorrect... if they had bad intentions ie wanted you dead then you would be...

I dont know what other intentions one could possibly have when they, along with 5 friends, decide to stomp on some guys head on the ground.

Originally Posted by AikiZenDragon

as gumby isn't dead which i am glad of he was lucky, his attackers were ineffective, and his training helped... if six people are trying to kill you the you will probably die

There lies the flaw in the reasoning of those who try to use the argument of numbers when referencing BJJ to a groundfight in teh street- Why didnt I die when people immediately started kicking my head when I went to the ground? Well, it was because my friends saw this and starting kicking some proper ass in retaliation.

**Ke?poFist** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 6:37pm

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

A McDojo would give you a black belt in one quarter to one half of that time and most are at an equivalent rate (at least in my area). Besides, what's $125 to train as many hours per month as you can stand in the best martial art in the world?

Sorry....couldn't just let the hilarity of this comment just slide by :icon_lol:

If you do something like kenpo then you really aren't training for anything at all because you have a huge artificial division between sparring and self-defence.

Ya know I'll let it slide that you repeatedly use the ignorant mispelling of the art (Kenpo rather than Kempo) but when you make blanket-statement misguided assumptions about what is entailed in a style/systems curriculum I'm not so quick to turn a blind eye. So tell me how many Kempo schools you've trained in and how far you got, or are you just listening to the critics of the likes of Villari and other such "Mcdojo-esque" characters?

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 6:43pm

Originally Posted by AikiZenDragon

don't get me started on that alive ****... as mostly it seems to mean what we do works and your way sucks... i have as yet to hear anyone on this site give a decent explaination of the concept... don't reference the articles by what's his name... read em liked em train that way...

When it trained aikido, it was fairly vigorous, and felt "alive" - but what was missing?

Active attacking.

That is :
- creating opportunities to attack
- looking for combinations and continuing attacks
- countering attacks
- defending counters while attacking
- using counters to create new opportunities to attack
- trying to get into the attackers head
- feints, fakes, otherwise tricking your opponent to attack on your terms, not his
- look for patterns, repeated movements, tells, to know when to attack

We didn't do this in aikido - because these are all key elements to *competition*.

**Thaiboxerken** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 6:48pm

I don't do competitions because I don't have the desire or time to train for such events. However, I know that those who do would likely own me in a fight, whether it's in the ring or the street. Yes, I train in the same systems as these guys and I actually train with fighters but I'm not gonna sit there and make excuses and try to convince myself that my training is just as good. I don't have the intensity, frequency of training or drive that the competitors do. That's my failing, I won't bitch about it and say that I know the 'deadly' and would destroy them in a "real" fight.

You, Wagabitchy, seem to have a problem. It's like you are trying to convince yourself that you don't have to train like a fighter to be a good fighter. Grow up. Your tired excuses and arguments simply don't impress or dupe anyone here that has a clue. Do your kata all day if you feel good about it. However, I'm pretty sure that you don't, since you are here bitching.

**AikiZenDragon** · Posted On: 1/29/2006 6:48pm

for gumby that is why i think competition is a good tool for training, but it still pales to a real situation where you are so scared shitless that you don't even realize it til it is all over, and that's when it hits you, but i am not a Psychologist and these kind of things are a little over my head...

Dakota... that is how some folks see it, but i tend to disagree and my sensei studied with Osensei from the early 60's so i trust his take we are more towards physical/practical aspects with equal emphasis on the spiritual...

young folks should bang heads...