Intro and a chance for you all to wade in!

**Enech** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 6:38am

Originally Posted by Yush

Good stuff Enech.

I'm pretty sure I saw an article on your school in a Blitz magazine a while back. I remember photo's of the tyre contraption and also your instructor (pretty sure it was him) grabbing someone by the nuts and dumping him on his head.

Harsh stuff :)

That would be Geoff aka Tank. Yes we target the nuts on occasion (keeps us safe in a class that is 95% male I tell you!) it is the fastest way to get someone to stop a bear hug from behind and your arms are pinned (a few chops to the nads does wonders)

**Enech** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 6:40am

Originally Posted by Cdnronin

For comparison purposes, how many phases are there before someone can be considered an instructor? As a rough comparison, if there are six belts before you obtains a black belt(junior instructor in many systems), and a person must go through 3 phases to become an instructor(I picked the number, it is not relevant), a phase would be equivalent to two belt levels.

There are ONLY three phases you test at phase one and two and three is ongoing. You have to do an instructors course (in Thialand usually) wil several master chief instructors before you can teach. Usually phase two is the earliest, but phase three is prefered.

**Enech** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 6:41am

Originally Posted by LORD ASIA

GOD I hate these MILITARY TYPES!!!

Who says I am military?

**FictionPimp** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 7:18am

Originally Posted by Vile

Hey Enech,

I'm also in NZ - lived in Christchurch for a while and my instructor used to travel from Dunedin. From recollection your guys had a school in Christchurch that was in Linwood as well.

Some of the stuff I saw was good, a lot of it was a little lacking. This is pretty easy to demonstrate from your claims - I get kicked in the knee full contact all the time, and I've never had anything worse than bruises. Anyone who does KK or MT will back that up. Striking to the neck can be nasty, but again in practical situations it doesn't work like that - as you say you don't even SIMULATE a blow to the neck, so how the hell do you know what it will and can do?

Think - you practice your kicking by kciking a tyre as fast as you can for 20-30 minutes.... WHY? What fight lasts that long? How does this aid your technique?

You call bareknuckle fighting a lost art and state people make "boxers fists". You are wrong. The difference in bareknuckle (refer for example to "The Manly Art" by Elliot J Gorn) is in the strike areas and techniques. The fist is made the same way - they just worked the body and threw only short straight punches to the face. Boxers breaking their hands in street fights comes from them throwing hooks to the head in the most part. Just stupid training.

NZ Army CQC is pretty much watered down BJJ with some weapon work added in. You guys don't seem to incorporate the techniques they do, when they discarded a lot of what you train in in favour of what they do now. Any thoughts on why?

You have to realise that the training you are doing (as YOU said) is based on the WW2 Spec Ops training. This is, quite simply, a BUDGET option. Why? Becasue it was designed to teach people a set of quick dirty skills that would help them perform if they had to use them. Its been said before and needs saying again - H2H is the LEAST needed combat skill for modern soldiers. If you are engaging someone without a weapon face to face you fucked up. The training you are talking about seems to be designed for use on unprepared people (offensive rather than defensive) assumes an unskilled opponent (emphasis on knee kicks and knife hands - do you KNOW how slow a knife hand with any power behind it is? Plam strikes and elbows work a lot better though - I agree with you on that).

There was a CQB instructor in Dunedin about 10 years ago who did a lot of door work. Made a lot of statements about how many fihgts he had won. Not sure if that was one of your guys or not, but the crux of it coming from other doormen in Dunedin was that the guy made a practice of beating the crap out of drunks who could barely walk. Not something to brag about.

Couple of questions: How do you teach defence against a kick to the knee? Just curious as getting a hyper-extended knee from a kick sounds like you didn't have a defence in place. Also, as asked before, do you guys to ground work and roll at all? I realise (from Todds website) that you seem to hold martial arts competition in disdain, but some of your guys competing in NZ NHB fights woudl go a long way towards validating your statements. Given that only biting, eye gouging and groin strikes are banned you should be able to go all out (yep - that means you can use your deadly neck strikes and knee kicks) since those limitations will also affect your oppontent. But then that might prove a few things eh? Like the comments I made before regarding it being a quick and dirty system? Hell, I know thats all 90% of fights need, but I'd rather take the time and learn a full system (or 2 or 3) and be able to work against a trained person as well as your average rugby player.

BTW Rugby isn't a martial art - its a code of combat....

You summed up what I was thinking just from reading the thread. It sounds like they need have a lack of full contact sparing. Other then that, I dont see anything wrong with being quick and dirty. Just needs more sparing and ground work. But it looks like that might start happening in stage 2?

**Enech** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 8:00am

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

You summed up what I was thinking just from reading the thread. It sounds like they need have a lack of full contact sparing. Other then that, I dont see anything wrong with being quick and dirty. Just needs more sparing and ground work. But it looks like that might start happening in stage 2?

OH Sparing (milling) is contact just not full power very often. Yeah phase two is ground work, phase one is not really. Closest is getting up from prone. and the dreaded boot party! Phase two is a logical extension of Phase one. Phase three is the scary one. It has things like Offensive driving, combat shooting, tracking, prisoner taking, body guarding, and that is what I know about (you can't regularly go to phase three unless you are in it).

**Enech** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 8:03am

Originally Posted by Memnoch1207

All that means is it's a bunch of people who can't control themselves properly.

The times that I have been injured during training we a result of the individual attempting the technique at a speed beyond they're ability to maintain proper control. Luckily it only resulted in hyper-extensions of my limbs and not broken bones.

Nobody in their right mind wants to get hurt during training, because then you can't train until you heal. And for some of us not being able to train is like a 3 year old being placed in timeout, all we're gonna do is bitch and complain.

Injuries are not that common. I accidently split a guys lip in a batton disarm, I've had a hyper extended knee, etc. But TEAL injuries are not that common. We respect each other and you can't test untill you are confident. Pass rates are fairly low, and that makes higher levels safer too. Similarly there are entrance requirements (no criminal record) and you are on probabtion as well untill they get to know you.

**bwerb** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 8:38am

Somtimes I must admit I don't really get some of the purpose of this stuff. If you want to be a soldier...join the army. If you are interested in security work or police work etc...join the police or military for training. Why would you ever need to know prisoner taking and body guarding as a self defense technique for getting mugged? It seems to be a cross between training for civilian/private security duties and wannabes instead of a self-defense curriculum. Are the majority of people taking these classses doing so as additional supplemental training for their jobs or are they "average joes" ?

(Oh, Asia's response to you wasn't questioning if you were in the military...a quick search of his background would be quite enlightening for you.)

**Gezere** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 9:34am

Originally Posted by Enech

Who says I am military?

That was the point. I am in the US military (and a Combatives instructor) and I think the MILITARY TYPES are just as bad as Ninjer and Samurai LARPers.

If you really want to learn MILITARY combat methods then why don't you sign up instead of playing dress up? Because all the "no competition" "deadly" stuff is all BS because in the actual Military (which I can speak for US, British, Greek, and Russian after training with them) is that they do COMPETE for the purpose of building e'sprit de corp and to hone skills.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 9:59am

Originally Posted by Enech

it is the fastest way to get someone to stop a bear hug from behind and your arms are pinned (a few chops to the nads does wonders)

Hmmm .... can no one in your class perform a decent Suplay or what?

Here's an idea: Don a t-shirt that says "I support Title IX" and head to the nearest college with a wrestling program. Ask them to "bear hug" you. I'm sure they won't mind if you ask if you could try to counter it with "the monkey steals a peach".

**Enech** · Posted On: 1/25/2006 11:53am

Originally Posted by bwerb

Somtimes I must admit I don't really get some of the purpose of this stuff. If you want to be a soldier...join the army. If you are interested in security work or police work etc...join the police or military for training. Why would you ever need to know prisoner taking and body guarding as a self defense technique for getting mugged? It seems to be a cross between training for civilian/private security duties and wannabes instead of a self-defense curriculum. Are the majority of people taking these classses doing so as additional supplemental training for their jobs or are they "average joes" ?

(Oh, Asia's response to you wasn't questioning if you were in the military...a quick search of his background would be quite enlightening for you.)

Those techniques are for phase three. It takes a long time to get there and you may not be allowed in by the instructor.