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  1. ryanand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 4:50pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    2 Judo Questions.

    There’s a lot of judo vs. BJJ threads around and such but I have 2 basic questions about judo that are never quite answered by anyone else. My main sources of information are the website mentioned below and judo videos I've seen, in particular, the BJ Penn vs. judo black belts vid and the BJJ lurker at a judo tourney. If anyone has some insight, please share it.

    1.) What are the actual rules??

    http://www.hickoksports.com/rules/rjudo.shtml says:

    Certain types of techniques are forbidden. Joint-endangering holds may be used only if a match involves two contestants of black-belt rank. Striking an opponent with hand or fist is not permitted. Some basic wrestling techniques are forbidden. A judo competitor cannot, for example, force an opponent to the mat in an attempt to pin the opponent; such an attempt must involve an approved judo drag-down or throw.
    A contestant may not avoid contact deliberately, or adopt purely defensive techniques, such as holding an opponent at arm's length or deliberately stepping out of the contest area. It is also illegal to trip or tackle; to use a foot, hand, or forearm on an opponent's face; to use a legscissors hold; to use any hold that might injure the neck or vertebrae; or to use the open fingers in choking.
    The following points confuse me:
    • “Joint-endangering holds may be used only if a match involves two contestants of black-belt rank” But in both videos, the BJJ guys weren’t black belts.
    • “Some basic wrestling techniques are forbidden” In both videos they are taking single and double leg shots. Hard to find any wrestling moves more basic than that.
    • “It is also illegal to trip or tackle…” A lot of judo “throws” that I’ve seen are actually trips… and like I said before, double legs seem to be legal, and those could be considered “tackles”, to some people.


    2.) Does Judo just suck??

    I know there have been MANY successful judo players in MMA. But it seems like the rules of judo tournaments are just silly. I'm still judging by the aforementioned sources, however. If a person is just completely befuddled as to the proper course of action when their opponent shoots on them, and that shot is perfectly LEGAL, then it seems like the rules of judo and the way it is taught should be changed. It's like not learning how to drive in the snow because "most of the time" you don't have to worry about it. Moves that any crappy wrestler knows can win a judo fight, judging by those vids. And if a judo “expert” can’t win in his own territory, then it must be time to change crap up.


    Perhaps question #2 was retarded, and the answer to question #1 will show me that. But from what little I know, judo seems to be FAR outshined by BJJ at the non- professional level. Muchas Gracias.
  2. Billy Havoc is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 5:10pm


     Style: Waylaying

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    when i did judo, pretty much everything except outright striking was allowed: guillotines (though the sensei didn't like it very much), leglocks... the sensei's motto was "if you can pull it off, use it!"

    so it probably depends on the school.
  3. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 5:17pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ad 1:

    http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_referee.php

    16. Entry into newaza

    The contestants shall be able to change from the standing position to Newaza in the following cases but if the technique used is not continuous, the Referee shall order both contestants to resume the standing position:
    ...
    d)
    When one contestant takes his opponent down into Newaza by the particularly skilful application of a movement which does not qualify as a throwing technique.
    So you can you go to the ground through techniques that don't count as throws, as long as the action is continuous. A well-executed leg takedown would qualify IMO.

    Ad 2:

    But it seems like the rules of judo tournaments are just silly.
    You're a wrestler. Let's not get started with "silly rules". Yes, many judoka don't know how to sprawl properly. Too bad. On the other hand, judoka will have tricks up their sleeve that wrestlers don't know how to handle. Judo doesn't "plain suck". It's the place to go if you want to learn throws with the gi.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  4. jwinch2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 5:20pm


     Style: Pekiti Tirsia Kali

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the rules of modern Judo competition do take away from everything that the art SHOULD be. However, more and more I am seeing people cross train in both Judo and BJJ anyway. I would be thrilled if the "powers that be" would allow for some rule changes to Judo competitions with the goal of improving newaza and makiing the "turtle" obsolete as long as they keep the allowance of scoring by "ippon". Having said all of that, I don't envision it happening anytime soon.
  5. ryanand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 6:01pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beatdown Richie
    Ad 1:

    http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_referee.php


    So you can you go to the ground through techniques that don't count as throws, as long as the action is continuous. A well-executed leg takedown would qualify IMO.

    Ad 2:


    You're a wrestler. Let's not get started with "silly rules". Yes, many judoka don't know how to sprawl properly. Too bad. On the other hand, judoka will have tricks up their sleeve that wrestlers don't know how to handle. Judo doesn't "plain suck". It's the place to go if you want to learn throws with the gi.

    thanks a lot
    i'd take your link's info over my link... mine wasnt attatched to any league or anything

    I suppose the problem we're addressing now isn't "silly rules" but "stupid training". If shots are legal and effective in judo competition, it would be in a judokas best interest to at least be fairly familiar with how to defend against them somehow. They're trying to have both sides of the coin but it bites them in the ass.

    Tournaments want to make the art more realistic/give players more options so they allow leg TDs

    Schools want to stick to their art so they don't learn how to defend against leg TDs.
  6. ryanand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 6:07pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Havoc
    when i did judo, pretty much everything except outright striking was allowed: guillotines (though the sensei didn't like it very much), leglocks... the sensei's motto was "if you can pull it off, use it!"

    so it probably depends on the school.

    if i can find a judo school like this nearby ill take judo in a heartbeat-- i really do respect the art, but it could be so much better.
  7. Lucky Seven is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 6:28pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It all boils down to the school, but the vast majority will not train in leg locks because it is not allowed in comps and will train in newaza half or less of what they train standing (although this is changing, you start seeing more and more "ground specialist" Judoka, at least here)

    Judo is outshined by BJJ thats for sure, BJJ is the new thing "cool" people do, MMA helped this and even if you see Judoka using something on the ground it is labeled as BJJ even if it exists in other martial arts because of the huge propaganda and publicity BJJ has, plus, because of the names, its a lot better to say armbar then JujiGatame therefore labeling that technique as BJJ after all armbar is BJJ terminology.
    I love to do Judo and there is nothing just quite like landing a smashing throw on someone and change into a sub while they have the wind beaten out of them but I wish the competiton rules where diferent, giving ground fighting more importance and allowing several techniques that where banned over time.

    For that reason for the time beeing BJJ will be more popular (for people who take fighting seriously at least).

    Visit Judoinfo.com for info about rules and other things
  8. HoratioHooah is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 6:32pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beatdown Richie
    Ad 1:

    http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_referee.php


    So you can you go to the ground through techniques that don't count as throws, as long as the action is continuous. A well-executed leg takedown would qualify IMO.
    Leg picks and double legs are fair game in my yudanshakai (50th State Judo) and if done well will get you ippon, so I'm a little confused as to what a "particularly skilful application of a movement which does not qualify as a throwing technique" is.
  9. Lucky Seven is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 6:36pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also I would like to add, no MA art is perfect and everyone should cross train, but that doesnt mean things shouldn't change, in my MMA training BJJ is included but I still think Judo comps should allow more time on the ground and leg locks, I have no experience with Sambo comps but I think they have the same problems with chokes.

    Safety reasons my ass, just look at other martial arts damn it!!
  10. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2006 9:19pm

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     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most judo comps will award the other guy points if you pull guard from standing and stuff that is legal in BJJ comps. You also, can't just jump on someone and drag them to the ground, a sweep, throw single/double leg are all legal and in the judo syllabus.

    Judo newaza is alive and well but it wasn't really taught in any of the places that I have been in the US (only a couple so no big deal). Here in Japan, we have Judo guys that enter BJJ tourneys and NAGA-like tournements and some do really well. Biggest thing that I can say is, if you are going to go either way, there is a lot to learn about competing in the other, it can round out your grappling skills.

    And Ryanand, that first like you put up wasn't that accurate as far as the rules. I was vague and I would suggest reading the IJF one instead.
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