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  1. thomaspaine is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 6:12pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Perhaps KageKaze, who apparently has the real ninpo, can explain the differences.
  2. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 6:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat
    I know for a fact that both Hatsumi and Tanemura have taught and still teach many of the things that you see in the above mentioned books.
    What would you call using a kamayari to hook onto a rafter, climbing up it and hanging from the ceiling (or hiding in the rafters). That sure as hell is ninjutsu, and I've seen Tanemura teach that. There's even a clip of him teaching stuff like that on a discovery channel documentary.
    They were talked about and shown in books but not in class. Even when you went to some fo the camps you did alot of Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu but very little that was ninjutsu and this was back in the 80s during the Ninja Boom.
    I know exactly what ninjutsu entails and I've been involved with the Xkans since the 80s and I telling you that NINJUTSU in not really taught. Sure play dress up for the cameras but come class time you are NOT learning ninjutsu.

    Hatsumi has taught all kinds of crazy assassination techniques. Dick severence has videos out on suiton and katon, and all those are kuden from Hatsumi.
    How often are these practiced. What are the validity of them? How realiable are oral teachings? Imagine the telephone game being done for centuries. Do you see what I am getting at?

    You say that because togakure ryu isn't officially recognized (or something to that effect) you (or other people) don't really consider it ninjutsu. I consider it ninjutsu from my comparison of its techniques to other ryu with ninjutsu techniques. But whatever.
    You consider it ninjutsu based off of WHAT school with ninjutsu? Be specific.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 6:23pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thomaspaine
    I've never trained in the Genbukan or Jinenkan, but from what I've seen and heard, it doesn't seem to be that different from the Bujinkan. The kamae/kata/techniques/whatever all look pretty similar, if not identical.
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site...kan_techniques

    From what I can tell, the main difference is that the Genbukan has a syllabus and is much more formal than it's Bujinkan counterpart. It also doesn't seem to place much value in sparring, just like the Bujinkan (note: yes, I am aware that some dojos spar, however they are the vast minority and every xkan shidoshi or shihan I've ever met has said sparring is unnecessary). From the discussion on their message board on the Genbukan and MMA, you get a lot of the classic "too deadly" TMA arguments:
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site...opic_topicID=6
    The Genbukan is more structured but there are other differences in the cirriculum as well. Also Tanemura is very secretive about his Hakkesho (Bagua) practice. During a taikai you are not allowed to film that segement (and a few others) but he never showed anything I haven't already seen. Peter Veerman explained why he did that to me once but I forgot the reason. Still it would be little match for my Hakyokuken (BAJI!) :hello2:
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. Chance is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 6:28pm


     Style: None at the moment,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are thinking of training to be a ninja STOP. Get out the telephone book, look up Circus Skills training and try a class. This will probably be closer to your mental image of a ninja flipping around. This will benefit 1) Yourself and 2) Society, by not having another person training to assassinate people which can't lead to good mental health.
  5. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 7:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bits and pieces

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If your a hobbist or looking to play around and have a laugh (my sensei told me about a "ninja school" that existed back in the late 70's it was basically kids running around in the dark hiding andbeating each other up when discovered) then go ahead. Just don't expect to learn how to vanish into the night via smokebombs and grappling hooks when someone tries to hold you up.
  6. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 7:38pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ninjutsu is a fairly modern term but it was used as a blanket term for gathering information, sabotage, spreading misinformation, etc.

    You know what other applicatons of conventional techniques were called? HENKA. (change or variation) You don't take a yari do change a few things and now its ninjutsu. Its different sojutsu/yarijutsu. By your logic different banches of any school would be NINJUTSU. See how that doesn't fit at all?
    That's not my logic at all. I know what henka are :smile: and I didn't say that just changing a technique makes it ninjutsu. You could create henka specifically based on principles formed for ninjutsu activities, and I don't find it unreasonable to say that you are applying "ninjutsu" in some form.

    BUT I was also saying that by the same token, just because a school uses similar tactics in its hand fighting DOESN'T mean *it* is ninjutsu. The two are not mutually inclusive. Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu both used hidden weapons and various sneaky tactics, but that doesn't make them ninjutsu. Usually when I hear that such and such is a ninjutsu technique, I assume it's focusing on the conscious application of kyojutsu ten kan ho or something.

    So no, of course doing some variation on a spear thrust is not ninjutsu, but I think you COULD call it that if the variation conciously draws from ninjutsu strategy.
  7. snowcat is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 7:42pm


     Style: Taijutsu, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odacon
    If your a hobbist or looking to play around and have a laugh (my sensei told me about a "ninja school" that existed back in the late 70's it was basically kids running around in the dark hiding andbeating each other up when discovered) then go ahead. Just don't expect to learn how to vanish into the night via smokebombs and grappling hooks when someone tries to hold you up.
    So basically, you are telling someone about something someone told you he once heard about (probably from someone else) 35 years ago which probably never existed?

    Great!
  8. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 9:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spunky
    BUT I was also saying that by the same token, just because a school uses similar tactics in its hand fighting DOESN'T mean *it* is ninjutsu. The two are not mutually inclusive. Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu both used hidden weapons and various sneaky tactics, but that doesn't make them ninjutsu.
    Thats good to hear since HIBUKI and deceptive tactics was a normal part of almost all JJ schools. (Imagine Don Cunningham as a ninja master!!! :tongue11: )


    Usually when I hear that such and such is a ninjutsu technique, I assume it's focusing on the conscious application of kyojutsu ten kan ho or something.
    Partially yes.

    So no, of course doing some variation on a spear thrust is not ninjutsu, but I think you COULD call it that if the variation conciously draws from ninjutsu strategy.
    And what would that strategy be? If its simply a way to strike another person down thats not ninjutsu thats henka of that technique. If its to arouse suspistions, insight chaos, etc then yes.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. Grashnak is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 9:06pm

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     Style: Nothing current

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bullwarrior
    i hear some roumors about a pretender "ninja master" that he always trains in judo but he had read some ninjitsu books, so i don't want to fall in a bullshido ninja school
    could u help me?
    thank
    francesco (bullwarrior)
    Hrm, coming here to get help with ninjitsu... I guess some of the bullies could help you by killing you and thereby preventing you from wasting your life on ninjitsu. :toothy11:
    Jesus loves you. I think you're an asshole.
  10. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 10:54pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You Ninjas are all a bunch of sillybuns.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
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